Safe to say that 6 is too much

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I started a new game (ease-of-use mod) a week ago with the following party:
Aasimar - Fightress4/PaladinessX
Shield Dwarf - Battleguard of TemposX
Human - Fighter1/DruidX
Aasimar - SorcererX
Moon Elf - SorcererssX
Thiefling - Fighter4/ThiefX

It tries to mimic some of the UPP suggestions, with some added home-brew deviations.

I mostly found out that this party is just too big! I have 3 fighter types, which in the games' endless annoying cramped fighting situations really can't do their job effectively, even thought the paladiness has some reach with her 2-hander. The cleric is often stuck, trying to deliver that saving heal to one of his comrades. The druids modded shapes are extremely powerful (and not very druid like, I must say) but the bigger size takes away the space to fight even more. The two sorcerer's, although they provide awesome firepower, more often than not, struggle to reach the right position from which to cast their spells. This always creates a delay, which can prove to be fatal. Two chromatic orbs, stunning the hard-hitters BEFORE they hit hard, are fight-winning. My thief is a let down generally. He was supposed to revive my memories of my awesome IWD bow using fighter/thief, but he fails miserably. He can't disrupt spells that good, because of concentration and he deals pretty low damage. In addition to that, its frustrating to micro manage the endless supply of different arrow types (which all look the same!). I mean, how many different arrows (and bullets and darts) does one really need?!
They also get stuck trying to go from one point of the map to another, which you find out when 5 or 4 reach their destination and the left-behind are at the starting-point... extremely annoying. I remember when first playing the game I thought that dumb path finding was caused by the low intelligence of the characters.
Another obvious point is the slower level progression, but I didn't found that to be the biggest problem, not yet. Anyhow, I'm thinking of reinventing a new 4 member party.
This has also been suggested by the JUPP, but at first I thought that this is true only for those insanely multiclassed professional characters, not mine simple, straight forward bunch of would-be heroes.

In conclusion, my advice to all new players, just go with a party of 4, I know, it's a pain, when you find an awesome item which would serve the hypothetical 5th or 6th member well, but try to resist the urge. Go 4!

(I'll make 1 barbarian, 1 sorcerer, 1 cleric, 1 rogue1/wizardX)

 

You may have tried this but did you increase the pathfinding settings in the game config? Given how old the game is you can happily bump it to the maximum on a modern machine. Not that it makes things perfect.

 

Bah. I always play a party of 6. I find anything less too boring.

 

6 characters are optimal

Just give a good ranged weapon to everyone and your problem is solved. Thanks to rapid shot the ranged damage output per round is usually higher than in melee. If you have trouble micromanaging special ammo just sell it and use normal ammo.

 

Six is the way to go. I too once had an urge to play with less ppl(for other reasons) but it really limits teamwork, classes and items usage, which is what this game is all about.

In many cases its not about the party size, but rather about chosen builds failing to do what they are supposed to do. Naturally you want to dump useless junk. (willingly or unwillingly.) Observe

Arcane casters casting useless spells, tanks failing to tank, thus receiving inappropriate influx of damage, which a single cleric is unable to handle, while a rogue doesnt do anything well at all.

-Make sorcs cast area effect spells, forget all the single target spells, especially those which do nothing on a successful save. Sleep, grease etc..
-Make that Shield Dwarf a Deep Gnome, and see how all those hard-hitters suddenly fail to hit his AC and deal zero damage.
-Make that Paladin another battle cleric(like lathander) and watch healing and buffing capacity double.
-Make that bow rogue a bow bard, who can do pretty much everything better, like talk, fight, detrap, in addition of casting healing and best arcane spells, and sing. With 20 base dex + luck song he can disrupt(and drop) mages pretty well.

Make the changes and notice how suddenly six is not too much and everyone has a task to do.

Iwd2 is a game with a higher level of difficulty. It expects competent parties, and rewards it with fun. I dont understand people who assume that a roleplaying game is the one which should be soloable with an unbuffed bard.

 

Actually, Roller123, I think that you can get a lot of value out of a pure rogue build, or even a fairly pure build. I'm currently doing a run-thru of (normal mode) IWD2 with a party of 6 that looks like this:

Human Ranger X
Sh. Dwarf Fighter X
Human Cleric (Lathander) X
Human Sorceress X
Human Bard X
Human Rogue X/Fighter 4

The Ftr/Rogue is holding strong at 16% of the kills. Of course, between them, the ranger (26%) and fighter (24%) have 50% of the kills. But the Fighter/Rogue is doing just fine. I use him in combat as both a backstabber (with a spear) and as an archer. The bard does her level best to avoid melee, preferring to sing and use archery.

I started the rogue as a rogue, and then at the first level up, took the first level of fighter to get the big burst of fighter weapon feats. Then I took about 4 or so more rogue levels, for the skills, before taking the next fighter level. Right now, IIRC, his level mix at rogue 7/ftr 4, and I happen to think that he's a fine addition to the party. I don't expect him to be the tanking powerhouse of the fighter. I'm looking for him to be the party's "combat engineer", scout, and sneaky backstabber in combat, and IMHO, this character's excelled in that role.

 

Most of the area-effect spells are ''friendly fire'' spells. Unless you have a cardboard cutout of the different areas of effect (which I really used to have, no joke) these spells really shine when the enemy is some yards away from you. When your melee components already engage the enemy, a fireball is often too late and useless. The only other option are either wail of the banshee (you get it late in the game and if they save it does nothing), chain lightning or single target spells.
In a 6 member party you spellcasters are usually in the third row in your formation. Especially in cramped situations, they must make their way at least to the second row where they can cast their spells, which grants the enemy time to close in to your group. Of course this is dependent on party formations, but the 2x3 formation is basically the narrowest of them all (ok, 6x1 is narrower, but the casters would be in the 5th and 6th row) and perhaps the best in tight hallways, others are, as far as I can tell, even worse.
Chromatic Orbs are used mainly on stuff that is predicted to have a really bad reflex saving throw. When those enemies advance on us, this 1st level spell acts as a instant kill spell. It takes out a damage dealer AND, most importantly, creates a living wall, which hinders the advancement of the enemy, turning the annoyance of tight alleys a bit into our advantage. Sorry, but there is no other 1st level, casting time 1, "instant kill" spell.

Hmm, dunno what you mean with that. Basically, what I wanted to say was, that I feel that a smaller party can shine a bit more than a full one, because I expect it to be more mobile, advance faster on levels and reduce the annoyances of bigger parties. Sorry if I said that in a way that may have offended you 6-member mindset.

 

I agree with much of this... Mages need to cast worthwhile spells. Tanks need to be good tanks. OTOH, as I posted previously, I do think that rogues CAN be good in combat, IF used properly.

I generally agree that area effect spells trump single target spells, and most particularly all-or-nothing spells. There are some single target damaging spells that I do like... Magic Missile, Flame Arrow, Vitriolic Sphere. But I don't take many of those.

For a Battleguard, wouldn't do it. Maybe for a regular fighter. I wouldn't want to take the ECL hit on a party's primary healer.

Meh, I like paladins... Though I should say that morninglords are nasty with all those nice fire spells.

Honestly, I'd argue that his current party can be very powerful. Personally, I'm not all that fond of going with only 1 true tank, and 2 sorcs is one too many for my taste.... But I admit that I tend to prefer a more physical style of combat in normal mode than a more heavily magic oriented one that the OP's party would seem to produce.



Iwd2 is a game with a higher level of difficulty. It expects competent parties, and rewards it with fun. I dont understand people who assume that a roleplaying game is the one which should be soloable with an unbuffed bard.[/QUOTE]

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Actually, Umex, if you are in seriously tight terrain, I would NOT have my mages in the rear. In many tight terrain situations, you may get attacked form the rear, and it helps to have a decent melee character, like a cleric or a druid, in the "6 hole"... someone that can hold their own in melee. Of course, this also happens to place your sorcs in the middle of the formation, and be better protected, while in a potentially better position to support the front liners.

As for fireball, one of the skills in playing IWD2 is learning to properly time such spells. One trick you can use is if you use the rogue for scouting, you can see the monsters you want to target soon enough to prepare. Cast the spell into the region where they'll have to pass thru, after the rogue has fired an arrow into them to get their attention. If the rogue is really good and DEXy, (or just really fast), he'll run thru the fireball zone without getting hit, or he can use his evasion to evade the damage. I was just using this very tactic with my fighter/rogue.

Of course, once the melee is engaged, fireballs are much tougher to use (unless the enemy has some spellcasters hiding well behind the lines that you can safely target). This is where the skull trap spell can be useful. It still has an area effect, but is much smaller. Now, while it does need to be triggered, it's usually not a problem. And if you do not happen to time it right and have a skull trap just sitting right behind the enemy waiting to be triggered, summon the weakest summons you have right under the skull trap to trigger it.

OH... another trick that you can use to make Fireball, and many other large area effect spells work better is to use movement disabling spells on the area first. Spells like Grease, Web, Entangle, Spike Growth, etc. This will slow the enemy's movement thru an area while your spellcasters fire away with their fireballs, or any other number of area effect spells. It may be hard to lead enemy monsters that are running full bore at your party, but when they're all slogging their way thru a greased zone, or are just plain stuck in a web or entangle, those monsters are easy targets for fireballs, etc.

 

In my last game (it's been quite a while) I started with one character and added extra characters as I played.

4 characters are easier to handle if you micromanage a lot. A party of 6 allows more combinations though.

When you're a reformed soloer you enjoy smaller parties.

 

i think the prob with iwd2 pathfinding is that it doesnt recheck routes. In BG2 if 2 chars happen to stick in a doorway(*sigh*) both get through eventually. In iwd2 it has been my experience that the second guy picks a route through the polar cap and sticks to it until the next obstacle. Pretty annoying indeed.

Not arguing the strengths of different chars, since with enough determination everything can be played thought heh. Just saying that the outlined weaknesses are not the result of party size, but a present weakness of the chosen class. Like the generic bow archer rogue type.

That may be true, if we omit grease, sleep, ray of enfeeblement, charm person, that 4 other lvl1 spells taking stuff out of combat. The real question is how casting lvl1 spells is an advantage.

 

This is actually the single most annoying aspect of the Infiniti Engine. The real time nature of this game engine make it difficult to target the fireball properly so that it hits enemy that are engaged in melee with your allies while not hitting your allies. Fireball take some time to cast and then the fireball takes some time to go from the caster to the location where it is detonated. All the while, your allies and enemies are moving and possibly changing directions during those times.

I seem to have mastered the art of casting fireball so as to hit enemies while barely missing allies (most of the time). I can have my front liners hold their ground and engage in melee while I shoot a fireball over top and hit just most of the enemies and usually miss my allies. Still, it is annoying because I mastered it for fireball, but different spells with different area of effects and different casting times throw me off that I am not able to aim them well. I have no such proficiency with flame strike for instance.

In contrast to turn based games like Temple of Elemental Evil, you can carefully aim the fireball so you are sure exactly which creatures will and will not be in the blast area of such spells. I enjoy playing spellcasters much more in turn based games because of the fact that I can use area effect spells more effectively. When the chance of friendly fire goes up from 0% (in turn based games) to even 10% (with the Infiniti Engine) it just turns me off.

I do find that I tend to use spells that do not affect allies at all. Chain Lighting, Confusion, Horror and Chaos are some of my favourite spells because I can use them without having to micromanage my party in melee. I also use singe target spells because they do not affect my allies.

I've always used a 6-member party. One of the reasons is that I like to have so many different characters be able to use as many of the cool magic items I find. The more party members I have, the more items I can actively use at a time. Also, I can have many more characters with more diverse abilities with more party members.

 

I can't see any other reason for the Evasion ability that Monks and Rogues have being in the game except to use them as baits so that you can clump your enemies.

One of the loading screens even hints towards this bombard-your-decoy strategy so I'm assuming it was intended.

 

I have done this myself as well. However, I would much prefer to be able to have my melee characters engage enemies in conjunction with my wizards blasting them with fireballs. The decoy fireball technique means that half my party is simply twiddling their thumbs. Also, the decoy fireball techniques does not work with spells that do not allow saving throws or spells that uses Fort or Will saves.

 

Well, that's why ALL of your frontliners should have Evasion and/or good Spell Resistance. Or alternatively, ranged attackers do not need to 'twiddle their thumbs' even when doing this. Yet another reason why ranged attacks should be favored over melee..!

 

I actually only intentionally use this rogue evasion decoy technique in a single battle, the battle against the lich. I always seem to forget the see invisibility spell, so I just send in my rogue to engage the lich in melee while my sorc and cleric bombard the general area with area effect spells that my rogue can evade.

And I should also note that in this particular battle, my tanks aren't twiddling their thumbs. There are plenty of dread elf warriors that need to be engaged, though I do keep my tanks away from the blast zone around the lich. (I fought this battle last night, and learned that without any way to see the imp.invis lich, it was actually necessary to use the rogue decoy, because it focused the lich's attentions on the rogue, and prevented it from casting a PW Kill on my sorceress. Of course, I had to pay very careful attention to keep the rogue's HP above 100 to be immune to the PWK spell.)

I guess that I have a serious problem with the general attitude that spellcasters should be free to fire off "explosives" right on top of your own party without any danger of hurting them. Heaven forbid that the players should have to learn how to properly use certain spells that might be dangerous to their own party. Mages are powerful enough in IWD2 already. If they could cast all of their area effect damage spells without hurting friends and allies, it would further skew the balance in their favor. I enjoy the fact that mages need to be careful with their spells.

 

I'm not asking for the ability to drop a blast in the middle of my party and have it only affect my enemy. It's just that in PnP D&D and many of the turn-based games, you have the ability to actually carefully aim area effect spells so as to affect enemies while not harming allies adjacent to those enemies, but farther from the centre of the blast. From the first gold box games (Pool of Radiance, Azure Bonds, etc.) of AD&D to Temple of Elemental Evil of 3.5, you could do this with many of these games. The Infiniti Engine's semi-real time game play makes this much more difficult. This extra difficulty just really turns me off. IWD2 just makes me feel cheated when I could cast all of these powerful spells with ease using other game engines. I just see no value in making me jump through more hoops to cast similar spells in IWD2. I just feel that the Infiniti Engine takes a lot of the fun out of playing spellcasters.

 

And you DO have the ability to more carefully aim such spells. Just pause the game when you want to cast a Fireball, etc. Jeeez.

I see this in the exact reverse. I see the turn based games as making it TOO easy to cast such spells, not that the Infinity Engine makes it more difficult. Trying to aim a fireball properly really shouldn't be an easy thing, if you're trying to do it close to your party against a moving target. I truly enjoy the fact that it's an imprecise thing and that it takes some actual skill on my part to properly use those spells.

 

It's not as simple as that in some situations. Sometimes, while you are casting spells, it takes time to complete the casting. Then it takes time for the fireball to move from the wizard to the target area. Then it takes time for the blast to start from the centre of the spell to expand to the edge of the spell. All that time, everything is still moving.

The thing is that the Infiniti Engine makes it easy for an archer to fire a volley of arrows at an enemy that is surrounded by other party members without any risk of hitting an ally. It just seems to me that the Inifiniti Engine makes certain spells and classes, particularly those that I like, arbitrarily more difficult to use than in other game engines or in PnP D&D.

I'm just nit picking about one particular apsect of the Infiniti Engine that is a disadvantage to me. There are certain advantages with the Infiniti Engine over PnP D&D such as Mirror Image. Mirror Image in IWD2 is way more effective than in 3.5.

 

I guess you are nitpicking. I like how it isn't easy to use damaging area effect spells and how you have to be careful about how you target them and so forth. And you apparently don't. Oh well.

 

I think this is a fair critique. It's not just the UI aspects either (IIRC Fireball would be more like the Gold Box Fireball if you got to pick the impact point when the spell COMPLETED as opposed to when you STARTED it, and it would also be easier to use). HoF's increase to monster hit points skews the balance away from direct-damage spells like Fireball and in favor of insta-kill spells like Wail of the Banshee/Prismatic Spray/Mass Domination. The plethora of powerful magic items tends to favor (magically-buffed) physical combat over magical artillery (even for caster classes) except in emergency situations. Etc., etc.

I don't think this makes IWD2 in any way a bad game, but it does mean that for certain aspects of your CRPG fix you need to fall back on different games.

-Max

P.S. One thing I do really appreciate about IWD2 vis-a-vis the Gold Box games is that you're not constantly having to rest after every combat to regain HP. That is, there's actually such a thing as a defensive strategy! That's partly due to the changed ruleset and partly due to the afore-mentioned powerful magic items.