How many months of probation?

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LKD is taking very very minimal amounts of these things, everyone else is taking the emotionally charged version.

I'm not saying either trumps the other; you're both right in different ways. Hurting someone's feelings because you forget valentines day isn't abuse. Hurting someone's feelings because you dehumanize them is. Etc.

I don't quite understand what that facebook thing LKD posted means, but I'm most certain that it is talking about the emotionally charged variety of the word: not the garden variety he is using. [Mostly I don't get what the "other guy" has to do with it.]

 

Many people (both *men* and women) have been in abusive relationships, and not murdered their spouse in cold blood.

It is not literal or figurative. Women are offered a significant amount of support if they leave their (supposedly) abusive spouse, whereas men are offered next to none. Indeed, many abused women *do* leave their spouse. Usually they either get with another abusive man (I wonder why? ), or latch themselves onto a supplicant male such as yourself.

False. Women are given lighter sentences for killing their post-natal children, and also allowed to kill their unborn children.

Yep, women have a p ussy pass, which is why they receive lighter sentences for murdering their children.

 

mordea -- although this has very bad timing on the boards -- one of the greatest regrets I have in my life is not pulling a trigger when I had the chance. Don't preach to me about abuse when you have no clue.

 

Only if the man is a pathetic beta male who supplicates himself to women. Men who don't treat women with 'respect' (ie. stand up to their ********), and don't give a **** what others think, get more ass than a toilet seat.

In the wild, the male pack leader doesn't hold the door open for the female members of the pack. LOL.

---------- Added 0 hours, 6 minutes and 29 seconds later... ----------

If you're male, it's lucky you didn't act on that urge. You wouldn't have been able to use the 'battered wife syndrome' pass to get 23 days in jail.

 

I think everyone should take a step back and a few deep breaths...

 

You misunderstand -- of course those things CAN be elements of abuse. But their presence does not always, 100% indicate abuse. The idea put forward in the facebook post strongly implied that it is a purely male phenomenon, which is utter and complete BS.

That's not to excuse or condone the men who do it. But it does mean that if a man gets into a screaming match with his wife, he is not automatically "the abuser" and she is "the poor little victim".

T2, I will reiterate because I consider you to be a friend. I do not mean the take away from the pain that comes from real abuse. The experiences you are drawing from must be brutal, and I would never seek to minimize that.

But the experiences I have had and things I have seen have led me to believe that our society, in a well meaning attempt to stop such horrible things, has overcompensated, and that everyday occurences like yelling, offending someone (either by accident or by holding an opinion contrary to theirs), or making someone cry (that last one really got me. I feel that many modern women use crying as a weapon, and it's a vile one, because it has the abuse overtones to it.)

Of course in chronic situations it's abuse, especially when it's coupled by a total lack of respect for the other person or for rules of civilized discourse (give and take) but again, in and of themselves, those things are not always accurate indicators of abuse.

 

In the wild there are no doors

In the wild there are also alpha females who are issued the same level of regarded respect as their male counterparts.

Either gender who displays no respect for the other is not worthy of attentive respect themselves. For if they are willing to disparage half of the population of their own species then why should the whole act as if they are worth anything?

If you are to hold a grudge then hold one appropriately, tarring someone as beneath respect simply for the lack of extendable anatomy is fruitless.

Nobody is claiming that men aren't abused either (There is afterall Battered Husband Syndrome as well) that hardly makes the norm to end an abusive relationship the murder of the abusing spouse, neither does it make is excusable. However general theorising and studying of Battered Spouse Syndrome indicates the presence of an almost fugue like state where the subconcsious desire for freedom, to thrive and survive acts in the absence of truly free will. There are even cases where the abused spouse shows such remorse as they believe they will be in trouble with the abusing spouse. Still trapped in a particular mindset despite the dominating partner being out the picture. Something lawyers will play on even if the murderer doesn't.

Arguments are natural. Screaming at your partner, using excessive profanity for small slights or when they do not argue back, are not. There is a difference between shouting in the heat of the moment and verbally abusing and attacking a partner. Screaming at your partner until they cry or as they plead you to stop is abuse. It is harmful and damaging over a long period of time.

Again, humiliation is in doses, there are the small things where one simply points out a certain daft action that would have been ideally kept discretely quiet, or there is the outright demolishion of the ego, a barrage of petty comments designed to make the person feel small, dirty, pathetic and unable to even take care of themselves. TRUE humiliation, not the high school oh-my-gosh-I-can't-believe-he-saw-me-adjust-my-bra-may-the-ground-swallow-me-now but the utter destruction of self worth and degridation of personal integrity.

I'll give you that one

Probably that one too. I've been in a position where my faith, the way I like to dress and even my physical condition have been remarked upon in crude and embarrassing ways, I have been insulted by partners on all three counts repeatedly in an attempt to discard my beliefs, wear only what they approve of and sit quietly and not ask for help when I've needed it. It's akin to humiliating, but more forceful.

Any woman who treats financial requirements as emotionally painful is deluded and more than likely a trophy date who has difficulty counting at the best of times It hurts my feelings when I get called a moron, or an idiot, but more often than not I know I bloody well deserved it! Calling your partner a waste of space on a regular basis, calling your partner fat to the point of obsession, weak to the point of surrender, pathetic until they no longer resist. Emotional pain is the underlying thread between most, if not all, abuse, pain that is usually played upon and used to prey upon a partner in a spiteful and vindictive way. Though I think in the quote it's referring to a good ol' fashioned beating.

The whole idea running under the campaign is based on 'hope' the campaign was started by someone who watched a friend who kept returning to an abusive partner until she was barely recognisable as the woman she once was. Many people will stay in a relationship because they can't imagine much better or have had their self worth reduced to the point they cannot see how anyone else could ever want them and the fear of isolation and lonliness is overwhelming. The idea behind the meme is to spread hope and try and draw out that fear of being alone. It's not that your supposedly loyal wife is eying up other chaps, it's that your loyal wife is being eyed up by those who would appreciate her better, analogy adapted from your own post, LKD

Problem with facebook is those darned character limits though

 

Ah, 8, that makes sense. That's for explaining the 'hope' of the campaign. The wording does make it sound like an illicit affair, but it's more about the prospect that the reader can be loved/giving the reader strength to leave an abusive relationship. (Though I don't know how well it would work with the spelling and spacing!)

 

I would respectfully disagree here. In some social circles, 'respecting your woman' is akin to being (I have to say it, ironically) a p*ssy, or a cuckold, and the only commonly accepted way of demonstrating that you're not is to 'keep your woman in check' with, as 8 verbalized so well, frequent and systematic verbal dehumanization, and/or beatings if she 'steps out.' Seriously. I know people don't like to believe that that kind of thing goes on, but it does. I know very few women who are in a position to do that to their men, because in such base social dynamics it usually comes down to who can kick who's ass, and the man usually wins that one. Tell me women aren't at a disadvantage when you see them in emergency rooms with multiple facial contusions or when you see them getting punched out on the street while offering no resistance.

That said, there is indeed plenty of blame to go around, and you're quite right about the 'turning on the tears' phenomenon et al. I've seen women who I thought were very much stand-up types do that for whatever reason, and often with little gained; almost like it's a 'watch this, I'm so awesome' vanity moment.

 

It's a (poorly) condensed version of an entry in someones' blog. First saw it *years* ago, think it was on LiveJournal but haven't thought to look up the original again to be honest.

 

Ya don't say.

I was referring (tongue in cheek) to the phenomenom that the alpha male in a pack doesn't get laid by supplicating to all the female pack members. He asserts his dominance, and gains a harem as a response.

When sexual dimorphism favours the female, perhaps (eg. hyenas). However, in a social species where sexual dimorphism favours the male, my observation still stands. Dominant, confident, assertive men get sex and respect. Boring 'stable' men get the 'privilege' of raising the children and providing for the pack. Hehe, suckers.

'My wife beats me up'. Um, yes, that is taken very seriously by society, and the courts. Excuse me, I have to take a break from typing... gotta go and laugh.

OK, back. Man, feminists are really out of touch with reality.

Typical Freudian feminist babble, which merely degrades the woman to an automaton or a child. The poor child, she *had* to kill him while he was sleeping, see. She had no choice in the matter.

It's a pity that our sexist domestic violence laws don't make such a distinction.

 

That's enough pot shots at 8; nothing she said was illogically feminist.

It isn't taken as seriously, but no one said it was. All that was said is that it exists and people 'do' acknowledge it, even if they don't form a mob.

I agree that it is a cultural stereotype which should be done away with (women beating men is just as bad as the reverse), but the way you phrase your ideas makes it seem like you're anti-woman. While you have some interesting views on mating, you don't seem strictly anti-woman; more about fairness in treatment. Just be careful you don't take it too far in one direction or you'll simply be an anti-feminist (i.e. the same thing you're preaching against.)

 

I disagree. Excusing someone of cold-blooded murder because they were abused is not a reasonable rationalisation. Furthermore, society doesn't accept such a justification when a man butchers his wife.

Yep.

Come on, you know what I'm like by now. If I feel or think something, I say it. I don't really care if people misinterpret my opinions or intent.

Not interesting. Just factual. However, since you find them interesting...

I have noticed an interesting paradox with many women. Many women want (and arguably *need*) a man who supplicates, who 'gives in' and is happy to act as a sperm donor and provider. However, once a woman gains power in such a relationship, she becomes *dissatisified* with this supplicant male. She begins to hold such a male in contempt for allowing her to gain the upper hand. And as a result, she looks outside the relationship for a strong man, one who is willing to tell her NO, and mean it. A man who does not give give give, but knows what he wants, and isn't ashamed to DEMAND it. Telling a woman "NO" in a firm manner rocks her world, assuming you don't back down. Abusive men not only stand up to women, but also go one further and have them live in terror (which I do *NOT* approve of).

Women *want* to copulate with these men, because they have good genetic material. A man who does not tolerate the nonsense of entitled princesses screams "I am an alpha male, I have plenty of women on the side, you are *lucky* to have me!". He is desirable.

So what we have in a woman's head is cognitive dissonance. She wants her children to have the strong genetic material of an alpha male, but the beta male to raise them and provide for her. Men (generally) cheat on their wives because they want younger, tighter vagina. Women (generally) cheat on their husbands because they want assertive strong studs with good genes. This explains why women often ditch their nice husband to run off with an abusive man. He might be abusive, but at least he doesn't supplicate.

I'm all for equal treatment. I don't buy into a lot of this feminist claptrap, either, and I'm not going to mince words.

 

That all depends on the situation, people have a habit of picturing "worst case" scenarios when formulating hypothetical situations. In a relationship where you're practically locked in the house, physically beaten, threatened with death to the point where you truly believe you will be killed, it can most certainly be seen as self-defense. Especially in the case where you retaliate to an attack.

I wouldn't stretch it to include any abusive relationship, because a lot of them 'can' be solved in non-violent ways even if the person doesn't think so. Reminds me of Plato's Republic; the kalipolis where anyone who is deemed criminally insane is instantly executed.

Edit- I would like to add that I think society 'does' in a way "justify" a husband attacking his wife if it is self-defense or perceived as such. The difference is that it is much easier for our society to accept a larger man attacking a smaller woman than the smaller woman attacking a larger man. If there is clear evidence that the man was acting in self defense when his life or the lives of his children are being threatened, the case is treated the same.

The reason for this difference, at least in men, I presume is because the 'average male brain' thinks "That little woman couldn't abuse a real man; that would make us men all look weak and pathetic! If he were strong, he wouldn't have been abused." Why this logical course is assumed could be many reasons, that of which I am too tired to cover right now.

I wonder if a case of a 6'4 250lb woman abusing a 5'6 130lb man would be treated the same as a 5'6 130lb woman abusing a 6'4 250lb man... most likely not; at least in the case of a jury/societal view. Would a 5'6 130 lb man abusing a 6'4 250lb woman be treated the same as the opposite? Questions to ponder.

Fair enough, I've never faulted you for speaking your opinion. There is a difference between misinterpretation and lack of clarity, however. For example, you're not opposed to the feminist movement, you're simply opposed to radical/ignorant feminists. That wasn't clear to me until just recently.

When you give someone a car, they're going assume it has breaks and a steering wheel unless you tell them it doesn't. Silly little analogy, but works for my point, I think.

I would agree that many, many people are attracted to domination/control/power. However, there is a middle ground between supplication and complete domination. This is where most people of each gender find a lifelong mate. Some who isn't afraid to take control, clearly state their opinions/what they want, but someone who isn't too weak to submit when it's necessary/beneficial. Notice how I use weak to describe the always supplicant person and the always dominant person.

There were some interesting studies posted here awhile ago I believe about what facial features women are interested in. Young, clean shaven pretty looking men were seen to be the most "attractive," but rugged/older looking men, especially men with beards or stubble were seen as the best "mating" partner/the most 'manly.'

I don't think 'good genetic material' is seen as purely alpha male and purely not beta male. I'll touch on this later.

This goes back to the middle ground point between supplication and domination. [I'd like to say that these are very accurate and contributory words that you chose.] But I'd also add here that I believe confidence to be more important than dominance. A confident person has those strong genetic 'flashing arrows,' if you would, but doesn't have to be controlling. They can be both alpha male and beta male. The old idea "It takes strength to show weakness," plays in here, but it is, in my opinion, incomplete: It takes strength to show weakness when weakness is appropriate; and courage to be strong, when strength is needed.

I will readily admit that I shed a few tears over the recent happenings at SP. I care not who thinks this action was weak or strong. It did not stop me from going in to work today, assuming a leadership (alpha-male) position and getting it done. I have not met a woman to this day, who likes to be dominated or not, that has faulted me for showing weakness when weakness was appropriate. I don't have any experience in the mating habits of other men, though.

I'm pretty sure most of the people here disagree with radical feminists. At least, I haven't seen anyone vying for unequal treatment or immediate castration of all men.

Surely you will not care but I would like to compliment you on your decorum in this post. It is still crude (not in an illiterate way, I'm sure you can glean my meaning: blunt), but in a way that it is supported with opinion and of conversational caliber. /tips hat

 

Should this topic maybe seperate into a second thread about domestic abuse?

lets face it, the person who wrote this is an idiot, the authors of most chain messages are idiots - they are poorly written and dont make sense.

Just thought I'd point the thread towards this:

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalheal...ostnatalmentalhealth/postnataldepression.aspx

I thought I'd bring this up because I knew a mother who suffered from post natal depression, and threw her 4 month old baby out of a 3rd story window - she is serving 8 (a decent sentence for the UK) years in Morton hall prison.

as for the pu_ssy pass, how many Americans are familiar with baby p?

little background for you:

Connelly (the mother - a woman) was ordered to be held indefinitely

her pu_ssy pass didnt help her much did it?

 

From wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Baby_P

So this woman was arrested TWICE for child abuse, and in both instances the child was returned to her?

May I ask a very simple question. Why was the father not granted custody? Why was the child returned to a parent who had been arrested twice for abuse, and whose boyfriend was a sex offender? Wait for it... wait for it... ***** PASS! Oooh, I love being vindicated.

Indeed, there have been several instances where the mother has been caught red-handed abusing the child. But instead of granting the father custody, the child is either return to the mother, or placed in a foster home. Seems like men don't have any rights to their own children your ******** of a country, even if the mother if abusing the hell out of them. No right to guns, no right to your kids. But hey, at least as the man, you have the right to pay, and pay, and pay, and pay.

By the way:

Only 10 years (minimum) for this?

 

actually, he's serving 10 and 12 years concurrently

yeah, there was a massive stink about the social's failures as evidence was not handed to the CPS

no, no pu_ssy pass, CPS had to drop the charges because there was no evidence.

when it comes to children in he UK the mother always has more right to the child then the father, look up fathers4justice

 

Shoshino:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/baby-p/6012885/Baby-Ps-father-to-sue-Haringey-Council.html

The father was still in the picture. He was a major idiot, but at least he didn't abuse his kid. I don't know why child services didn't give him custody. They can't plead ignorance on this matter, since they removed the child from the custody of the mother *twice*. Why the hell didn't they just give the father custody?

This isn't the first news article I've read where the child was taken from the mother, and the (separated) father not given custody. I've got to say, that sounds rather sexist to me.

Edit:

LOL. How much evidence do they need? I have a funny feeling if the child had been living with his father, and he'd been seen with bruises all over his body, there would have been a different outcome.

Even when they are abusive? Jeez dude, you are aware that you just vindicated my claim of... ***** pass.

 

No mordea, I was a child. At eleven years old my sisters and I found my step-father with his hand around my mother's throat pressing her into the arm of the couch. She was starting to lose consciousness. I ran upstairs to grab a gun. I guess he heard me slam the bolt home and take the safety off because he backed away. He looked rather comical stanting there, arms spread like he was on a cross, beer in one hand. I regret not taking the shot.

My mother got up and took the gun from me. There was more arguing and a gun shot, but she missed. It was the gun shot that finally got the neighbors to call the police -- they never acted at all when three kids were screaming "You're killing her! Stop choking her!"

The police took him away. I was an absolute wreck -- I don't remember my father. I simply remember years of father-son campouts where some other kid's dad would feel sorry for me and take me along (and then leave me to fend for myself). I remember other kid's dads at the pine car derby looking proudly at their sons. I remember seeing other kids playing with their dads. And I nearly shot the only man that ever even tried to be a dad to me.

I didn't go to school the next day, I simply couldn't stop crying. My mother came in and asked if I wanted my dad back. She'd been a single mother for years (at a time when single mothers were really looked down upon) and we'd lived in poverty. My step-father was the first man that didn't turn tail and run when he found out she had three kids. I can understand why she wouldn't want to go through life alone.

I let my grief talk and I said, "yes."

He had a free hand after that. He knew the limits he could push and still get away with it. And he did. I know what it's like to peel away pajamas stuck to the skin from dried blood. I know what it's like to feel the buckle of a belt. I know the disorientation that come from being knocked out. In fact I knew all these by the time I was thirteen.

My mother didn't stop any of it. Something I didn't understand but do now is my mother didn't ask my opinion -- she gave the decision to me. She absolved herself, in her mind, of everything that came after. That burden became mine.

There is no running away. The police do not prevent crime, they investigate crimes. An abuser knows this and uses this knowledge to his advantage. Abusers rarely abide by restriction orders. And unless the victim is willing to completely abandon their old life and friends, the abuser can always find their victim again. Walking out the door solves nothing.

 

You have to apply for custody, they dont just give you custody.

certainly a possibility, did the father want the child? If he did he should have applied for custody, no court would deny him in this situation.
as for evidence, when youve handed CCTV footage of a stabbing over to the police and the CPS drop it you lose faith in their abilities.

I havent vindicated your claim of pu_ssy pass, this was an extenuating circumstance, where the social services failed in their duty to protect the child, not something which happens regular, if the case had been handled properly then the child would be alive, I doubt that most mothers who win custody of their children are abusive.
You claim that women recieve better rights and treatment for everything even serious crimes, it simply isn't true.
there can be factors which can reduce sentences, dependents, for example, which Tobias no longer has. and psychological issues such as PND, which Tobias may have had, I'm sure that sentencing is being delayed until december while a psychological evaluation is carried out, but either way, she is liklely to recieve a harsh sentence.