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Greatest Laker of All Time?

Discussion in 'Colosseum' started by Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, Feb 7, 2012.

?

Greatest Laker Ever?

  1. Kareem

    1 vote(s)
    25.0%
  2. Magic

    3 vote(s)
    75.0%
  3. Kobe

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    There have been some discussions on this now, with Kobe just moving up to 5th on the all-time scoring list. Realistically, if he plays two more years, moving up to 3rd all-time is attainable. If he can pull off 3 more good seasons, he can pass Jordan for 2nd all time. He needs four great season, or five pretty good seasons if he wants to topple Kareem for the all time scoring leader.

    So the question is, who is the greatest Laker of all time? There's only 3 choices in the poll. And these guys are so good that we only need first names here. Wilt is not on the list of three, because he only played 5 of his 15 years with the Lakers - 7 with the warriors and 3 with the 76ers if you're wondering about the other 10. I know there are a bunch of quality - Hall of Fame caliber even - players who played the majority of their years for the Lakers, but there's only 3 possible choices here.

    My pick:

    Magic. He played 12 years, was the best player on his team during that run. Lakers made the finals 9 times and won 5 titles. Nuff said.

    EDIT: Kareem is on the list because although he started with the Bucks, he played about 2/3 of his seasons as a Laker.
     
  2. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I don't care if he was only there five years....

    Greatest Laker -- Wilt
    Great Basketball Player of All-Time -- Bill

    :p

    To be honest though I'd put Jerry West above two of those you've listed.
     
  3. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    I also voted for Magic
     
  4. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    That's tough because of the difference in eras. The radio here has been blathering on about this. By the way, Aldeth, you're wrong on the scoring list. Kareem is 1, Karl Malone is 2, not Jordan. Arguably, if Kobe plays five more seasons at 18 points per, he makes it to #3 on the list. I don't see him passing Malone though, as he doesn't get the FT love that Malone did and no longer gets the easy buckets, so I think we can say he tops out at #3.

    So, subjectively, what is the "greatest" Laker? The one with the most rings? The one with the most points? The one with the best overall stats, relatively speaking?

    How about the one that everyone likes the most? The one that does/did the most to bring good feelings and PR to the club?

    You can see that depending on your definition, it's going to be different. By the way, I would NOT put Jerry West ahead of any of those people unless we are also counting non-playing contributions, in which case he is #1 hands down, as he would then be part of one championship as a player, and 8 as an executive. Plus he's the friggin' logo. Plus no one has a bad thing to say about him. Plus his angst and inner demons appeal to people.

    Anyway, back to greatest Laker (as a player). If we aren't looking at sheer numbers for body of work, IMO it's Magic because of how he made the Lakers fun, a household name, how he added something to his game all the time, how he made his teamates better and how, unless you happened to live in Boston, you at least liked him no matter what team you rooted for. He had the intangibles, he wasn't an overtly pampered cuss like Kobe or a moody guy like Kareem, and he always had that big smile going for him.

    Couldn't play a lick of defense though, but that didn't matter in his era and the HIV thing actually helped him, because he left at his peak and he also helped educate millions of Americans who believed the weirdest crap about HIV. (But that's a bonus.)

    If you want to rely on stats, I have to go with Kobe because, by the time he's done, he's clearly going to be the best statistical player the Lakers ever had. He really doesn't make his teammates better though (he tries the MJ way of basically intimidating them into it, but that doesn't really work for him). He's a much better defender than Magic, and, IMO, Kareem's best overall years were actually with the Bucks. He was already on the downward trend when the Lakers got him, although that was a VERY slow descent and he lasted a heck of a long time.

    Kobe has the most insane competitive drive (and believe me, Magic had one too) but at this point, that's a mixed bag - it forces him to play with a torn ligament in his wrist when any sane person would have had that fixed, but it means that he tries to take every game over when the smart move is to get your teammates the ball.

    Two classic examples: Opening night, down one, Kobe has the ball against the Bulls with time running out. He's triple-teamed, but everyone in Staples, everyone watching TV, and probably little green aliens in the Andromeda system know for a fact that Kobe is hoisting that one up himself, even though he could have flipped a pass to Pau in the lane for a bunny. Lakers lose.

    Last night, Lakers at Sixers, Kobe is insane in the first half. However, he misses 9 of 10 in the fourth quarter when the play should have been to feed Bynum in the post EVERY TIME DOWN THE FLOOR. The Sixers had no answers for Bynum (most teams don't), but Kobe needs to be the boss, and that kills me.

    So my heart says Magic, because we all know what statistics are worth. Plus, Magic would have gotten Pau the ball on opening night for the win and Bynum and Pau would be averaging 25 points and 15 boards a game if they were playing with Magic instead of Kobe. Plus the Lakers wouldn't have lost to Dallas last year with Magic instead of Kobe. And the Lakers wouldn't have lost to Boston in 2008. And Magic's farts don't smell, and he poops roses. (OK, I made those last two up.)
     
  5. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I knew you would weigh in. You're right about the top three - I don't know why I flip flopped Jordan and Malone. In order to get to #2 on the list, he'd need to average 25 ppg for the next four years.

    How far he goes up the list though really depends on what kind of player he is going forward. I ran the numbers for 3 sets of point totals - first I figured 15 ppg - if you're in that camp, you feel that Kobe is already in decline, and his decline will be rapid.

    In this scenario, he needs 2 years (after this one) to pass Wilt, 3 years to get to Jordan, 6 years to get to Malone, and 8 years to get to Kareem. Of course, if he's only averaging 15ppg, he likely won't play more than 2-3 more years.

    Next I took a look at 20ppg - in this scenario, Kobe is also in decline, but his decline is gradual. In this model, he would just miss catching Wilt at the end of next year, so still 2 more seasons after this. But then at the end of that same year, he'd pass Jordan as well. Bad news after that, as it would take him 5 years to get to Malone, and 6 years to get to Kareem.

    Finally I looked at 25ppg. In this scenario, you don't believe Kobe is in decline at all. He averages 25.4ppg over his career, so this scenario requires he maintains that level of play going forward (which I concede seems unlikely). In this scenario, he pass Wilt next year, Jordan the year after, Malone in 4 years and Kareem in 5.

    So I do agree with your assessment that 3 is the highest he can realistically climb. Kobe doesn't strike me as the type of player who will hang on like Kareem did. I think as soon as his production drops into the mid-teens in ppg, he's gone. So unless you think he can maintain his level of play of at least 4 more years, Malone is out of reach.

    Also with Kareem, the reason I included him and not Wilt is that while he did not start out with the Lakers, he did play more of his career with them. I stopped being lazy and actually looked up the stats this time.

    He played 20 years, and 14 of them were with the Lakers. While it is true that his best statistical seasons in terms of ppg were with the Bucks, he was the best player in the league when he got to the Lakers. Three of his six MVP awards were with the Lakers, the last coming in his 6th year with the club. He may have had his best seasons with the Bucks from a statistical perspective, but he was certainly still in his prime for about the first half of his career with the Lakers. His ppg started to decline in 1982, which coincides with Magic's rise as the premier player on the Lakers.

    After T2's post, I thought I may have given short shrift to Wilt's career, but after doing more research on him, it only confirmed my initial impression, although I did learn a couple of things about him that I didn't know previously.

    For example, he played for the Globetrotters for two years after leaving college. He spent the next 7 years with the Warriors. When he signed with them, they were based in Philadelphia (which I knew), and they moved the team to San Francisco and became the San Francisco Warriors for a few years (which I didn't know - I thought they went right from Philly to their present-day location in Oakland). The Warriors moved to Oakland and became the Golden State Warriors after Wilt's career with them ended.

    After leaving the Warriors, he went back to Philly for the next 3 years, this time with the 76ers. One could argue that he was already beginning to decline at this point in his career - all of his best seasons were with the Warriors. However, he did win an MVP with the 76ers, so I still have to consider him in his prime at that point.

    Then he spent the final 6 years with the Lakers. At this point, there's no arguing that he was in steady decline - he was already 32 in his first year with the club. While he was still a dominant player when he saw the court, he started suffering a lot of injuries - particularly in his knees. I still don't understand how a team that included Wilt, West, and Baylor only won 1 title. Three future Hall of Famers for four years (Baylor retired two years before Wilt), and only one title? Anyway, injuries were catching up to Wilt by the time he got there, and while I do think Wilt belongs on everyone's Top 10 list of players of all time - maybe even Top 5 - I can't consider him among the great Lakers, when his time with them doesn't include any of his best years. I still find it surprising he only won two titles in his career. Bill Russel was pretty much the only guy in the league that could guard him, and has career with the Warriors coincided with the Celtics' run of championships. Then later in his career, Kareem became the league's best player.
     
  6. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    On Wilt, you probably need to understand what kind of player he was. He was freakishly gifted, but mentally, his priorities were absolutely screwed up. Bill Russell, a smaller and much less athletic man, OWNED Wilt. Bill knew exactly how to play him, how to screw with his mind, etc.

    Also, to Wilt, Wilt's numbers were more important than team success. Ignore the 100 point game, although that says a lot. He never fouled out of a game. He knew that and so did everyone else. So when Wilt would pick up fouls, he would get completely passive.

    The only time he won a championship is when he was not the featured guy, knew he wasn't the featured guy, and was somehow made to accept that. I can't say he is the opposite of Kobe, because Kobe is also very concerned about his stats, but Wilt was about Wilt first then the team. When Kobe is about Kobe first, it's because he thinks that's the only way the team is going to win. I just happen to think he's wrong.

    On Kareem, I had forgotten the mid-'70's period when he was statistically great but the Lakers blew chunks (maybe that makes that period for him similar to MJ's late '80's stretch). Sorry. I think you can make more of a case for Kareem based on his numbers.
     
  7. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    You aren't old enough to remember Wilt's prime, are you? He retired in 1973. With Kareem, I wasn't even born when he was first drafted by the Bucks, but I do remember him as a Laker. Obviously, I have no memory of Wilt, other than highlights, nor Bill Russel.
     
  8. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    I've read several books on the NBA which talk about Wilt and Bill Russell. There's no way I am old enough to have seen him in his prime.
     
  9. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I thought as much. I figured at best, you'd have been very young towards the end of his career, and since most people (or at least for me) don't remember much from the first five or so years of their life, I doubted you would remember much before 1970 or so. He must have been impressive though. His season record for ppg of 50 will never be broken. No one has even sniffed it. I assume Jordan is "second" - if we define second as "someone not named Wilt Chamberlain" - but Jordan never even averaged 40 in a season. I haven't checked, but I imagine that Jordan's "second" is more like 5th or 6th, with Wilt holding all the top spots. It's probably something ridiculous like Wilt owning 7 or 8 out of the top 10.
     
  10. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Actually, Wilt and MJ each averaged 30.1 ppg over their careers.

    If you haven't read Simmons' book on basketball, I highly recommend it. It explains what was going on in those years where we weren't alive and helps you understand some of the numbers and why they were grossly inflated.

    No one played defense and there were significantly more possessions per game, so there were significantly more opportunities to score. Wilt was an extremely gifted athlete, but he isn't sniffing 50 ppg in today's day and age. He didn't have to play against complex defensive schemes. Heck, he didn't have to play against any really gifted athletes his own size. He was taller than Russell and more athletic, but he didn't have the head for it.

    If you put him in the 80's or 90's, he's playing against much more athletic players. If you put him in the league more recently, he's not only playing against more athletic players, but he's playing against much more complex defensive schemes, a slower game, and with rules that favor guards over centers. He'd be fouling out (which I think is a good thing). He'd probably have the blocked shot record, but he's not getting the scoring record. Plus, hack a Wilt would send him to the loony bin.
     
  11. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    What this thread needs is someone who knows something about basketball.
     
  12. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    And here I thought Splunge's comment would be about fishing ... I'm a bit disappointed.
     
  13. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    You guys have no idea what you are talking about. Rambis was the Man!:p

    Seriously though, Kareem all the way. He changed the college game. He changed the Pro-game.

    I was never a Magic fan. His teams were loaded with stars. He had Kareem, Wilkes, Worthy, Scott, Cooper, Rambis and others. Always had a great supporting cast. And as noted above, he played no Defense.

    I rate Kobe above Magic. I am not a Kobe fan, but he is pretty awesome. He doesn't need Shaq to win. He is the closest thing to Jordan that I think we will ever see.

    West would be number 5. I would rate Elgin Baylor number 4.
     
  14. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    The issue was greatest Laker, not greatest basketball player. Thus, I ignored Lew Alcindor's three years at UCLA playing varsity, the fact that his freshman team beat (handily) the returning varsity team that just happened to win the national championship the year before (remember that freshman were not allowed to play varsity when he enrolled at UCLA), the fact that they outlawed the dunk in college due to him, as well as what he did for Milwaukee when they drafted him. All of that, with his Laker time, makes him, hands down, the best basketball player ever.

    Also, I think you are doing a disservice to Magic by pointing to his teammates. Remember that Magic had to beat teams that also had multiple all-stars because the league was not diluted as much as it is now. Recall that the rules were, basically, no blood no foul.

    As far as Kobe not needing Shaq to win, you're right. He just needed the most skilled big man we have right now in Pau, instead of the most dominant physical force I have ever seen live in Shaq. The argument is silly. Hoops is a team sport. If you have crappy teammates you don't win. MJ didn't win until he got Scottie and Horace Grant. Kobe couldn't win with Smush Parker and Kwame Brown (I still shudder at that team), and Magic had his teammates. Heck, Kareem couldn't win at Milwaukee until they traded for Oscar Robertson.

    Look at the Celtics of the '60's - massively stacked team.

    As far as being like MJ, I agree that Kobe is very much like him. Unfortunately for Kobe, his teammates are not very much like MJ's teammates right now. He has no shooter like Kerr or Paxon. He has no stifling defense small forward like Scottie who was content in the Robin role. He has a better center in Bynum that the three headed monster MJ had, but Bynum is unfortunately made of glass. Pau is a better power forward than either Horace Grant or Rodman from a scoring perspective, but not necessarily from a defensive perspective, and the Bulls bench was SO much better than the Lakers bench that it's not even funny.

    So there.
     
  15. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    You don't have to be on a winning team to be great as a player. That is what we are talking about, right? Greatest Laker, not Greatest Laker team? Magic played on a great team just about every year of his career. It inflates his greatness. Put Kobe on one of those 80s teams and see how much better it would of been. How many HoFers did Kobe play with? Shaq will be the only one that was impactful. Magic played with a couple of others at the same time for multiple seasons.
     
  16. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Different eras. How many teams today have more than two hall-of-fame guys in their prime? I'm not even sure Miami counts, although I'll say Bosh is HOF worthy just to allow the argument. They just redid the rules to make sure that doesn't happen again. Boston's Big Thee probably count, but only in the year they beat the Lakers, not when the Lakers got them back. Garnett was far from his prime, Ray Allen was past his prime and so was Pierce. Not sure Rondo is going to be HOF, but you can't say he was in his prime when he was afraid of shooting the ball or driving the basket because he might be asked to make a FT.

    Who did the Lakers beat to win the 3 championships with Shaq/Kobe?

    An Indiana team with an old Reggie Miller, a relatively old Mark Jackson, and Dale Davis trying to guard Shaq. Yeah right.

    A Sixer team that had Allen Iverson and no one else who could score. Dikembe Mutombo tried to guard Shaq - that was actually comedy gold.

    A NJ team that I honestly cannot remember anything about except Jason Kidd. They may have had Richard Jefferson at that time. I think their center was Todd McCulloch from Washington. That guy trying to guard Shaq was also comedy gold.

    I think you have to account for different eras in judging these players and further, I think winning championships counts for a lot more than running up stats on a crappy team.

    On the intangible side of things, Magic was much better for Laker PR than Kobe or Kareem.

    Of course, this entire argument is subjective, which is why I pointed out all those questions in my initial post. This is still more fun than working though.
     
  17. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Indiana was about 10 deep then. Not 10 all-stars, but 10 very solid players. There were 2 Davis' on that Roster, Dale and Antoine(Center). (neither could cover Shaq, but nobody in the league could, so I don't see that comparison being relelvant). Did they still have Rik Smits then?

    The 76ers were very strong defensively, but again, they had no Center to guard Shaq, even with the 12 fouls they had to give with Who Wants to Sex Mutumbo and Matt Geiger. they also couldn't cover Kobe, as Iverson was a mismatch defensively becuase of his shortness and Mckiee and Lynch wer just to slow, though they were good defenders in their own right.

    You are fogetting Kenyon Martin on the Nets team. And Kerry Kittles. And Lucious Harris. Actually a very deep team, but no match for a Kobe/Shaq tandem.

    You are right, Magic did have tougher Championship matchups, but the path to get there for Kobe was tougher. The West had several good teams for years to contend with. Utah, San Antonio, Phoenix to name a few. Especially San Antonio, that was a good, solid team for years, still is.
     
  18. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Well yeah - I mean look at the Celtics teams from that era. Bird would make anyone's Top 5 of all time. McHale is in the HoF. Parish is in the HoF. Dennis Johnson made a bunch of All Star teams, although he's not in the HoF (at least I don't think so). And Danny Ainge was very good as well. So the argument that Magic played with other HoFers - Worthy and Kareem - is mitigated that he was facing off against other teams that had multiple HoFers as well.
     
  19. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I completely disagree. We are talking about an individual's greatness, not his team's greatness.
     
  20. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    ??? You're disagreeing with me for agreeing with you? How does this happen? dmc pointed out that the Kobe/Shaq Lakers had less than great teams to play in the finals. You agreed, but placed the caveat that all the good teams at the time were in the west, so they had a tougher time making it through the playoffs. I agree with both those statements, and just added that because there were a couple of great teams in the 80s in the Celtics and Lakers, and that one of those teams seemed to win the championship every year. So of course when they played each other in the finals there were future HoFers on both sides of the ball, and the level of competition was obviously high.
     
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