Stealth In Game vs. RL

Remove all ads!

You see though, that's the thing. I was of the opinion that the theif was merely hiding. The game treats it the same as if he's invisible. If I hide somewhere, I won't be seen because I'm hiding, no because I become invisible. Or for comparisons sake, Osoma bin Laden is hiding, but I imagine he hasn't become invisible.

 

@ Aldeth - What you are suggesting is that rather than have a blanket "Stealth Mode" that prevents you from being seen, you have areas of the map (close to walls, shadowy area's etc.) that are flagged as "Hideable". In these areas your thief can use his Stealth stat, and you can move him around in hidden mode. However, you only know he is in stealth mode, not whether he has passed his stealth check. Leaving a hideable area (i.e. moving from the edges of a room to the centre) would immediately remove you from stealth mode.

Is that it?

 

Exactly. A thief that is in "stealth mode" means he has successfully passed a stat check for "hide in shadows" and "move silently". No where in those terms does it suggest that the thief has powers of invisibility. I don't know if we need to go so far as shadowed areas, but there should be some conditions that limit hiding ability. For example, in a dimly lit dungeon, you may be able to hide just about anywhere - unless you decide to hide directly beneath a torch, or right in front of a fireplace in an otherwise well-lit room.

 

But *I* can "hide in shadows" and "move silently." So could *anyone* in RL. But it seems to me that a thief in DnD could be said to have refined these abilities to a point well beyond what anyone in RL could do. At least that's how I've always seen it...

 

I agree with Bion. I see hide-in-shadows as a special ability of the thief/rogue class. True one can't hide in a well lighted area but if there are shadows the thief can take advantage of them beyond what normal person could. It's not the same as being invisible where one could walk sleathily across any area.

 

I think a hide in the shadows attempt is not limited to just that. I once read somewhere that "hiding" for a thief also involves camouflage, disguises, etc. Combined with superhuman dexterity (or high levels), a thief can hide in just about any condition.
I also believe that as a thief's levels get higher, his skills improve and he discovers new techniques to make him better at hiding. He acquires items that make him better at hiding, albeit they are not viewable to us gamers by default. It's quite possible - I can't imagine how a thief would be able to pick a good lock with just a piece of wire, and at some point in a conversation between Yoshimo and Nalia, Yoshi points out several trap-disabling techniques that involve the use of none-to-common items in your average dungeon. If thieves carry a lockpicking kit, a stealth kit wouldn't be too far behind.

 

I thought there were certain spots where it's harder to hide in shadows. In some places I can't hide no matter what and when I move away a bit I can. Might be wrong though, I haven't played with thieves that much.

 

I think we can agree, the hiding in the shadows is not an ability we could ever seen in the real life. Like we never see a sorceror who casts fireballs...
I think this hiding like someting built in magic... So I dont' think about that.

The only thing what is intresting, that thiefs can hide in the dark corner easily than walk around the well lighted chambers also...where this hiding would never succeed. It would be good to store value of the dice for the current attempt and if the player enters an area where upon that dice roll this attempt would be unsuccesfull the player would go visible again.

By the way this thread remind me the film: "Stand By Me". This is based on the story of Stephen King, titled "The Body".
Two children (13years old!!!) talks:
- Who do you think is stronger Superman or Mighty Mouse?
- You are f$%ing crazy Mighty Mouse is a cartoon, Superman is a real person. A cartoon can't be stronger than a real man.
- Yes, you may be right... Anyway it would be a good match. One I saw Mighty lifting five elephants with one hand.
- Jesus...

 

Apparently, I took the comparison a bit too far.

I will concede that anyone could - in theory - be able to move silently and hide in shadows. I will further concede that a high level thief would have refined his abilities to the point that they are at a level much higher than anything that we see in modern life, simply because it is a skill that no one would have a use to practice enough to become so proficient in it.

That having been said, it in no way makes the thief invisible. You shouldn't be able to hide in shadows, walk up to a group of creatures (some of whom are facing in your direction) and have none of them see you as you walk behind one of them, and backstab them into chunks. I don't care what kind of camouflage the thief employs or how dextrous he is, it's just plain ridiculous that you should be able to do this in a game.

Keep in mind that my biggest problem is hiding (and usually subsequently backstabbing) a single member in a group of creatures. If there is a single opponent, or even multiple opponents all of whom are facing away from you, it is theoretically possible that you could pick off one of them without being seen, but there are few opportunities to do so in the game.

Take, for example, the encounter with the group in the north center of the sewers. If you walk up, you are immediately seen, and the encounter begins. However, if you stealth your thief, you can casually walk right up behind the mage, and backstab him into chunks without anyone seeing you until after it happens. I find it hard to believe that in a group of 5 (?) adventurers standing around talking that none of them could have observed your approach, especially considering that the mage is right in the middle, and you had to walk past other people to get to him.

 

and also If you kill mage they don't attack you but they talk to you and if they're successful at robbing you they go away

 

I don't know Aldeth, the sewer example looks on the display to be silly. I'm sticking to my idea that what we see is just an extrapolation of what's "really" happening. Perhaps the thief is creeping along the wall up near the ceiling (I know, they left out climb as a skill), perhaps some of the stealth ability is knowing how to track where someone's attention is and moving when it's off of you. Have you ever see a good up-close Illusionist work? You can know that they are trying to distract and misdirect you, and they still do stuff in front of your face that you don't see happen. In the end I just file it away with all of the other imlementation things, like creatures with 98% of their HP gone being able to move and fight just as well as uninjured ones.

 

Well, this is not a simple hiding. This is something similar to the invisibility spell, just with unlimited usage every day. The problem is that you would like to compare it with the real life. But this is a game.

If it would be a "normal" hiding why would disappear if the thief changes weapon for example? Or uses any potion?

I am pretty sure if you must compare to anything, try to compare with the mage spells. Or if you want imagine that you are the Predator...that can be transparent also...

By the way there are other things in the game, what are also strange:
- Assassins can poison the weapon Xtimes a day. After that they need to rest to be able to poison again. How this works in the real life? Simple: if you have poison you CAN, if you dont you CAN'T!
Or you have a sneak pet, and can milk it like a cow every day...
- Traps, are the same. After sleeping 8 hours somebody can set new traps...
- Called shot: No matter how small is the target 100% success. You can even shot bachterias to pieces. What is this in real life?
- Dual: if you dual your character, suddenly he/she forgets everything was already learned. Some kind of reborn in the real life? A break in the time and your 2 ego will meet in the future?
- Armour restriction: some characters can't wear every armour. Barbarians for example can't put on plate mail... There are no penalties, just simply can't. How do you interpret this in the RL? Barbie keen on pink and don't intend wear any other color?
- Armour size: If you kill a hobbit it's chainmail just fits to your half orc character... In real life this can be the strech?

Maybe you can continue this list, but there are a lots of things what can't be compared to the life because - beleive me - this is just a game. And especially the RPGs dont have too much common with the real life. This is a feature not a bug!

That's all now, I think I need some rest. I will cook afternoon and I still have to memorize some burning hands... Of course just after get riding of my bad big boss if he dont give enough raise. Anyhow I gain some gold or XP...hehe

 

To add to the argument that the stealth abilities of the thief (along with the combat abilities of the fighter, etc) are far beyond what is possible in RL: think about how the progression in character levels have since original DnD lead a high-level character to the possibility of immortality. Also, at high levels, characters can fall great distances, be shot up with arrows, and dunked in burning oil, and just shrug it off; what's the RL explanation for that? As for the group of adventurers hanging out in the sewers, why is it that they have to be thought of as standing there stationary the whole time? Maybe the stealth thing works out to catching one person unaware as they leave the group to do personal business, etc. Actually, I probably have more of a problem with my standard solution for those guys: parking a bunch of summons in the middle of their group before talking to them. I wonder what they would say: "hmm, where did this fire elemental and all these hobgoblins suddenly come from?" "gee, I dunno, but they seem harmless enough; let's just wait for those adventurers to show up so we can shake them down for cash..."

 

Or for that matter, what is a fairly high level adventuring party, outfitted with Magic Weapons and Armor doing shaking down passers-by in a sewer anyway? Trying to save up gold to buy the Robe of Vecna?