Thoughts on Kensai/Mages, Fighter Dual classes of all kinds, and other matters...

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From reading the board, it's pretty apparent that a large number of regulars here aren't fond of the kensai/mage dual class main character. Which is understandable; you wind up with a mage who can also hold their own in a fight pretty much up to the end of SoA, and probably a good way into ToB.

But I'm playing through currently with a F/C, and to be honest .. he doesn't kill much slower than a kensai. Not much slower at all.

So what's the common denominator?

Time to play 'answer a question with a question'!

How many here, when rolling up a new character, roll a lot, and then fiddle with the scores (as the game blatantly allows you to do) to 'optimize' your new character?

*hand up* I do. Almost without thinking.

And THAT'S why kensai, fighter/thief, heck, ANY fighter single, dual or multiclass is very powerful to overpowered in BG2, at least in the early game.

From my PnP experiences, where we used a character generation system that allowed you a good chance of getting very high character scores, the character class most unbalanced by allowing manipulation of ability scores beyond 'roll once and that's it' is the fighter and its subclasses. Why? Because of STR.

Exceptional STR is a massive boost to a fighter's damage capabilities and THAC0. Once you get past 18/50, you've got +2/+3 on your melee attacks, which on a weapon would be considered (in PnP terms) a weapon that could last the average PC fighter their entire career, if they were ever lucky enough to find a weapon that powerful.

And if you also consider that the average player, if they've got the patience to sit there rolling for a high total ability point total, will also have the patience to reroll if the exceptional strength they get is too low, and now there's an awful lot of people running around with a decided advantage before they even start.

And on top of that, if the player takes a half-orc as their character (a quite sensible decision for the power-oriented gamer), they can pump their strength to 19 initially, and not have to reroll for a good Exceptional STR percentage.

Example: I'll take the half-orc fighter/cleric that I mentioned at the top of the post. He's got a 19 strength, and is specialised in the weapon he uses.

Right there, that's 9 points of damage with each successful strike, and +15% to his chance to connect with a hit, before his weapon is considered.

By comparision, if I had made this character a kensai instead he'd only (heh) have 12 points of damage and +30% to his THAC0 before the weapon was considered.

What I'm getting at here, is that the kit isn't making that much of a difference. There is a difference, but it's sort of like the difference between 5 and 10 megatonnes, if you know what I mean.

I've rambled a fair bit here. So what am I exactly trying to say?

For those on the board who have been turned off the kensai due to its raw killing power, here's a suggestion that might make it a bit more fun for you:

When you make the character, don't reroll your stats from the original roll. And don't fiddle with them.

I think that, without the boost from a high STR score, the kensai will seem rather more balanced.

NOTE: I am aware that this idea falls apart in late SoA and all of ToB, as STR-enhancing items are freely available, and any character can wind up being as strong as a giant. I'm afraid there's not much we can do about that, besides restricting oneself from using those items.

I'm also aware that the difference between a kensai and a plain fighter will become much more notable as levels progress, and by ToB, a pure kensai is truely fearful to behold. But then, that's not the class that generally gets picked on, is it? It's usually the kensai/mage or kensai/thief dual-classes that I see being knocked here, and in those cases (depending on the level at which you dual-class) the difference is not so marked. And besides, I think the kensai's no-armour disadvantage will probably REALLY come back to haunt him in ToB, where the THAC0s of opponents REALLY start to get low..

Anyhoo, comments, disagreements, let's hear'em!

 

Well, im one of those that doesnt optimize their rolls, i roll like once or twice (unless i get veeeery crappy rolls) and im happy. Wonder why they couldnt have a set amount of points in bg

 

I hope that the next edition will allow characters to be built on a point system like in the Living City campaigns of RPGA. Anyone who likes multi-player games can do this now with Shadow Keeper.

I use multi-player and Shadow Keeper. Rerolling is a waste of my time. Currently, each player I use will have the attribute scores of a particular NPC (selected only once). I will arrange these scores to my liking. The GODLING should be powerful. In TOB his attribute scores will be one better than Sarevok's, + bonuses from hell that Sarevok never got because he was killed .

There are numerous ways to increase the challenge of the game. Playing with characters that don't have comic heroe attibututes is certainly one way.

By the way, I don't think that the kensai-mage and kensai-thief are spurned so much as acknowledged as powerful characters.

Personally, I think the tremendously powerful equipment available also reduces the challenge. But I think those are cool (game-supplied, no custom cheese) and find other ways to increase the challenge.
[This message has been edited by Kull (edited June 15, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Kull (edited June 15, 2002).]

 

Good news for you (if you didn't already know) both NWN and IWD2 are using the point buy system for character generation.

 

... I think that's exactly why the Kensai/Mage gets overpowered. The no armor thing is quite a problem for kensais, but the kensai/mage can wear robes and cast stoneskin, mirror image , protection from magical weapons etc.

 

Yes, but once you're into ToB, the kensai/mage's melee abilities just aren't as impressive anymore, making meleeing with him rather unneccessary, and thus rendering him pretty much a mage with a sword rather than a staff.

Of course, this does depend on when you dual-class. ToB allows for a much later dual-class, though if you dual-class too late, it's a looooooong way to go to get your kensai abilities back..

 

Interestingly a kensai-mage has a few things in common with the perhaps even more powerful dc ranger-cleric:

The ranger cleric has acess to some kick-ass power-boosting spells (like rightous magic, united powers/ holy might/ draw upon holy might) as well as acess to some murderously effective protection spells (iron skin/ blade barrier/ impr. blade barrier/ aura of fiery death/ regeneration ...).

Insofar I feel tempted to say a ranger-cleric is more powerful than a kensai-mage as he has no armor restriction ... and unlike the kensai-mage, his second class abilities actually really compensate (just check these spells) for low first class levels.

However, actually about every spellcaster becomes very effective over ToB. The addition of melee abilities insofar is only a bonus.

So I also see a dc kensai-mage only as a mage with a sword in ToB - or another weapon. Though it's nice to have a good defensive ability (maybe even with a staff like the staff of ram) this does not enable a dc lvl-13 kensai- lvl-x mage to really survive the najor ToB battles at the frontline. I had the same problem with my lvl-6 fighter/ lvl-y thief from BG-1 who just whooped anything over SoA and got whooped silly in ToB.

So generally I now favour mc over dc when I intend to go to ToB. A multiclassed kensai-mage is a copletely different story ...

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited June 16, 2002).]