Let's all have a big argument about cheese.

Remove all ads!

Ah, cheese. It has plagued many a discussion, so i thought, what the hell?

What do people consider cheese to be, what are the worst forms of it and who thinks it doesnt exist.

In my last game (sorceror), i have not taken either chain contingency or mordenkainen's sword. For me, those two are pure evil. Chain contingency is good enough in principle, but autofiring Level 8 offensive spells on sight is wrong. And mordenkainen's sword takes the rest of the challenge away.

One thing i am bothered by is spell trap from staff of the magi. It never gets brought down, ever. Is there a fix for this?

[ October 07, 2004, 00:04: Message edited by: Taluntain ]

 

Cheese is exploiting game bugs and cheats etc. Using overpowered items, and exploiting AI, and some spell combos is cheesy, but not to the extent of exploiting bugs etc. Using legitimate tactics, and spells that the game gives you is fair enough.

People seem to think cheesy is anything that stops the game being too hard. Like using "raise dead" etc. If you want it to be harder, increase the difficulty level to insane etc. But using legitimate, game created spells, and tactics is not cheese.

 

An example of cheese is placing traps around a dragon then starting combat with the dragon. It's unrealistic (in a D&D sense anyway) that a dragon would WATCH you place traps then step on them.

 

If you think cheese is Chain Contingency or Mordenkainen's Sword, then you really need to move your 'Difficulty' slider up a few notched from "Novice".

I think cheese is spawning an invincible thief that wields the "killsw01" item which instantly turns you in to flying chunks of felsh and bone when you try to kill Aran or Bodhi...I think that by attacking and killing one of them the other will see it as acting in their favor (enemies of enemies and all that good stuff) and will then accept you in to/back in to their service. Now, I can understand it happening if you try to kill both of them, but not if you only try it on one of them.

 

Top 3: Fake-talk, Project Image, Time Stop-Shapeshift: Illithid against something you couldn't reach with the tentacles or which is unintelligent.

Anything that would be fine in principle (like a sneak attack mid-conversation, followed by immediate hostility) becomes degenerate due to the nature of the system. When you're exploiting bugs and program loopholes like that, you're not playing, you're just doing a less beneficial form of beta-testing (well, less beneficial for the designers, at least).

I realise there are limitations on the nature of what the game can achieve in terms of realism, but don't try to pass off exploiting that as "smart gaming". Hiding while Improved Mae'Var's spells run out or running away from Undead Solaufein until his protections expire is smart if you can't win through it. If you're going to fake-talk or otherwise cheese things, you should just save the time and CTRL-Y them.

And that's my $0.02.

 

My €0.02: Cheese is such a big question that it can't be dealt with in a single topic, no sir.

To prove it, I post today a new topic on a single "cheese" question.

 

"If you think cheese is Chain Contingency or Mordenkainen's Sword, then you really need to move your 'Difficulty' slider up a few notched from "Novice". "

Not fair, not fair at all. I play on insane all the time, although, to be fair, it has little effect on my sorceror.

Also...super powerful items...*cough* robe of vecna *cough* ... im not sure where to stand on these. The biggest problem with robe of vecna is not that it is so good, but that it is the only realistic choice of robe.

Fake talk is, definitely, evil. Ditto for shapeshift since mindflayer is a cheesy creature anyway.
And traps i hate too, since they can be abused, even with the limit of eight.

 

Theres nothing wrong with super powered items or super powered spells.

I have problem with the set 150 traps around a dragon before you fight him. Or the fake talk.

 

What is fake talk? The only thing that comes to my mind is something like Vocalize...

 

I really dont know why you're all complicating things so much.


Cheese is a dairy product to be eaten, period

Discuss this on countless topics and covering dozens of pages!

 

The ultimate killing tactic. As you know, wordy opponents are usualy a bit harder. If they prove too hard, simply pause the game before they turn hostile on you. While in pause, click as to talk to them, and then click to attack them. If they dont die after about 4-5 seconds, repeat.
Works like a charm most of the time, especially on Firkraag...

I dont recommend it for RPing though...

 

I wouldn't recommend it in any situation. It's like I'm talking to you now, but now I'm gonna kill you without you noticing.

 

If I were going to rate cheesiness my top two would have to be:

1. Fake Talk (still the undisputed champion)
2. Setting traps in front of an enemy and hope he doesn't notice. However, there is a caveat to this, which is why I have it rated #2 and not #1. Unintelligent creatures such as golems would let you, unless they were specifically programmed to kill anyone who attempted to lay a trap in the room.

 

Regarding the trap setting, I think it's conceivable that setting traps behind an enemy would go unnoticed. The rest of the party could be talking or doing something in front, distracting the opponent.

*SPOILERS*
For example, Irenicus at the Tree of Life is so busy draining it he doesn't even acknowledge your presence when you pass by. If you got the wardstone in the Temple Ruins, the Shadow Dragon is simply unable to see you unless you attack it. Firkraag doesn't even consider you a threat to his life. In each of these cases, you can lay traps away from the target and lure the enemy to them if it makes you feel better.

 

Well, no matter how much you cheese through the game, as long as you still enjoy playing it, then that's all that matters. It might not be the 'proper' way to play it in other people's eyes, but who are we to deny your satisfaction?

 

The Shadow Dragon? Sure. He has no way to even suspect you're there.
Irenicus? Maybe, but probably not. He may not be too concerned about someone running around but not bothering him, but somehow I don't he'd really stand there while someone set a bunch of traps around him without doing something.
Firkraag? No. Dragons don't get to be that old and powerful by ignoring adventurers setting traps around you.
Setting it behind someone? Come on, it's not like setting a trap is quiet. you don't just set something down and it magically becomes dangerous. (Maybe with the magical time trap, but not a spike trap, much less a regular one)

 

When Irenicus is at the Tree of Life you can't even talk to him or attack him. Why would he ignore five Mordy swords swinging at him and go hostile because you set some traps nearby? He's more blind to you than the Shadow Dragon.

Firkraag is too arrogant to think that you could kill him. Your party is like insects in his eyes. Red dragons are intelligent and powerful but can be blinded by their pride.

Is setting a trap quiet? I would think that a thief capable of hiding in shadows, moving silently, pickpocketing, and stealing can set a trap very quietly, especially if he's invested a lot of thieving points in that ability. At least it doesn't make any sound in the game when you set one.

 

Traps are just a touch overpowered. If their use was more tactical, i might not object. But the only practical way to employ traps is to use them to obliterate foes before they can strike, since their damage gets through just about everything.

Could there be a mechanic where setting traps risks turning nearby people hostile? That would help avoid the firkraag exploit.
Or perhaps only allowing traps in certain areas, like windspear hills but not bodhi's lair? It's a difficult one.

As for the stealing trick...the real problem for me is the potion of master thievery. Get rid of those and it would be a long while before players could abuse stealing. Just my £0.02.

 

I reserve traps for ambush and fallback tactics. This works nicely in the Underdark, where you get ambushed so it's like payback to set up an ambushes in return. This also works for Firkraag and both Irenicus encounters because you can set traps in the area outside of visual range and lure them over. If the battle goes badly, it's a legitimate and smart tactic to retreat to a fallback point defended by traps. A bounty hunter has even more tactical options with his special traps.

I ran into an enemy that does not trigger normal traps: the demon on the first floor of the Guarded Compound. I set a few hoping to lure him over, only to have him walk right over them with impunity! FWIW, six high-level normal traps will not kill Irenicus in Hell. I found both of these out during my solo Assasin run.