Religious discussion continued

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This is a continuation of my original discussion in the God's misperception post.

I mentioed that most people, at least that I've talked to, will claim that they are religious, believe in God, etc., but are not able to define anything about what they believe or why.

There was also a side discussion on whethere free will of man and the omnipotence of God are mutually exclusive.

If anyone has read the Misperceptions post and want to comment on this discussion, post away!

 

Um....Hello?

Why didn't you just bump the original post?

This is one that is just *SCREAMING* to get locked...

[He didn't bump it because he felt this discussion was separate from the original topic and didn't want to detract from the original topic any more - BTA]

[ September 21, 2002, 02:52: Message edited by: Blackthorne TA ]

 

ejsmith, I have just been criticized for being off topic. The God was very cool about it and I don't have a problem with him asking me to move my discussion. I got carried away with the discussion and was clearly in the wrong and admitted and apologized for it. However, I DO have a problem with two things.
The first is you posting content unrelated to my topic
And second I have a problem with your public criticism -in my post- of the handling of the matter.
Especially since I have already apologized to the God and attempted to rectify the matter by moving to a new post. Since the God has not responded, I guess he is satisfied. If you have a problem with the whole situation, please contact the moderator or send me or the God a private message.

Finally, the only reason I am posting this rather than sending you a private message is that you have made your criticism public, so I am responding publicly. If the moderators want to delete this post, and yours, that's fine with me.

 

I have never heard the issue of God's omnipotence and Man's free will explained satisfactorily. As a matter of fact, I don't think it can be.

After centuries of debate, Islam, the world monotheism that most stresses the omnipotence of God, decided long ago on an official response: "Please do not ask that question."

I would expect similar official stances from Judaism and the major strains of Christianity are similarly non-committal.

Something I don't get about Christianity: one of the major early debates was about the nature of Christ; whether he was human, divine, or what. The end result was that Jesus had one nature...he was completely human. And completely divine. The main heresies, such as monophyism, were such ideas as Christ had two natures, one fully divine, one fully human.

The question is this...what does all of that mean? How can one nature be fully two different things? Are these people just talking to hear themselves talk?

 

I talked about this with a freind of mine who is very intelligent and deeply religious. He gave me an answer which sort of contradicted itself. After arguing for over an hour, he finally said
"You ask too many questions. I don't know the answer to this, but there are many things about God which can not be fully understood by mortals with our limited comprehension." and several other things along these lines, along with something about Satan making me question the word of God. I responded that I was searching for meaning and truth and said that if you don't question things you will never learn anything. I said that I was not mocking him or God, but merely trying to figure out what it all meant.

I do remember my teachers in Catholic school referring to the question of Christ's divinity as "the great mystery of faith".

Some people, Catholics in particular, seem to view these contradictions as a test of faith. Most of them have told me things similar to my friend, in essence, that if you had proof that God exists, there would be no faith, since faith is a belief without proof. This seemed like a cop-out to me.

 

I find it hard to belief in something that has never been proven to exist. I belief that my choices are my own and that my life isn't predeterment. I don't belief in destiny.

Homer Simpson: Yeah, god is my favorite fictional character.

[ September 21, 2002, 11:07: Message edited by: Silverblade ]

 

Its a simple fact that you cannot believe in fate if you do not believe in a higher being and vice versa. I do flat out not believe in either and all that the catholic school I go to has done is made me a better disbeliever.
There are too many condradictions and bull in the bible for me to believe it. And their crap about Satan I can almost not believe. Check out 'Religious Fanatics' thread and see what I mean.

 

How to prove the existence of god, or define his characteristics is a problem discussed by a lot of philosophers.
For example Descartes, Francis Bacon, Immanuel Kant. I like Kant most ("Kritik der reinen Vernunft"). It's not easy to read philosophers texts, but it's worthwhile.
Sometimes it seems as if a church can't allow all questions or doubts. Some religions have a small amount of weird overcome views. It's for example very important for the catholic church that Mary was a virgin, otherwise Jesus would be an illegitimate child. If Jesus was an illegitimate child, the church can't demand abstinence from the believers. So let's don't talk about it.

I think, it's impossible to prove gods existence. But it's impossible to prove he's not existing either.

 

Oblate hit it right on.

Since it is impossible to either prove the existence OR the non-existence of God, it is up to each and every one to choose whether they believe or not.

-thanos

 

You're partially correct. We can't disprove that A GOD exists. It's relatively easy to prove that someone like Yahweh doesn't exist, though. He has a set of contradictory attributes. I can't prove that there aren't pink unicorns flying rings around the sun, but I can prove that there is no such thing as a spherical cube.

For example, you can't have a perfect creator god. Something that is perfect is complete. Something that is complete does not create.

Something perfect can't produce something imperfect. If something can produce something imperfect, it could be made better such that it could only produce perfect things. Hence it's not perfect. We are imperfect. A perfect god could not have created us.

Yahweh is supposed to be both omniscient and infinitly compassionate. Supposedly those who sin and are not redeemed are sent to hell to suffer for eternity. An omniscient being would know its creations would suffer such a fate before creating them. It is not compassionate to create something only to doom it to an eternity of pain.

Our lives are a finite length. We can only commit a finite number of sins in our lives. Yet sinning results in eternal torment. Infinite punishment for finite sins... and Yahweh is said to be just. Funny.

The list goes on and on. Yahweh doesn't exist... I'm not saying gods don't exist, I'm just saying that if they do, they don't have those attributes. They can't.

I had some JWs knock on my door yesterday. We spoke for nearly an hour. I told them at the outset that I was an atheist. Every time I directed a question at them, they rambled about something totally off-topic. Not once did they address one of my questions directly, even though I repeated the question up to three times and asked them to address it. They claimed they were both Ministers or some equivalent. I'd expect they'd know the most about this stuff... I certainly didn't expect the mumbling they offered.

Why is religion so popular? Because it's nice. If I believe, I AM rewarded... there's no doubt about it. But the reward is psychological. I have someone to blame when things go wrong. I have someone to plead with when things seem hopeless. I have someone who has a plan for me... I don't have to take responsibility for the direction of my own life. I don't worry about my mortality, because I believe I'm going to heaven when I die. Believe me... I WISH I believed. But it's just not credible.

 

Judas, I agree completely.

Further discrediting YHWH is the text of the Old Testament. The Ten Commandments themselves show that the ancient Hebrews were not monotheistic, but rather chose to worship one god. They command to put no god before the god of the Hebrews...taking for granted the existence of other deities.

EDIT: Perhaps my usage of monotheistic is what is is unclear to you, Big B. I say they chose to worship one god; monotheism is believing in one god. Not the same thing, but I should have been clearer in my wording.

[ September 24, 2002, 04:35: Message edited by: The Deviant Mage ]

 

Great points, Obliate and Judas.
I'd be very interested to get a counterpoint from anyone who posts here who is intelligent and believes in God.
How do you reconcile contradictions in your faith like this? I don't know too many people personally that are highly intelligent and believe in God. The few I do know have basically brushed me off and said I ask too many questions.

On a related note, the Dilbert cartoonist Scott Adams has a book called God's Debris that I found extremely interesting. It is a very short book (a little over 100 pages) that does not have anything to do with his cartoons and is not a humorous book.

It is basically about a conversation between these two people, a delivery person, and an old man he delivers a package to. The old man asks the guy a series of questions about his religious beliefs and proceeds to rip them to shreds, one by one, then... well, you have to read it. If you're following this topic and have these kinds of questions, you should check this book out!

Could God make a stone so heavy that he couldn't lift it?

[ September 22, 2002, 02:51: Message edited by: Nutrimat ]

 

I'm sorry Deviant Mage but I'm not seeing the logic in what you just posted. I think you misworded something or didn't clarify what you meant enough (no offense). Not being monotheistic, but choosing to worship one god do not match. And I don't see how this discredits the existence of YHWH/JHVH (or my personal favorite 'Adonai).

And Judas, perceived contradictions do not cause something not to exist. Something may seem illogical to you, but that does not prove that God doesn't exist.

And yes, I find my relationship with God rewarding. Does it give me somebody to blame? Hmm, I could blame Satan for all the wrongs of this world. After all, it was he who tempted mankind and started sin in this perfect world. He got the ball rolling so to speak. I could blame myself for being an inherent sinner and the sins I commit daily. I could blame others, and point out the speck in my neighbor's eye and ignore the log in my own (Matthew 7:3 and Romans 2:1). But what's the point of all this blaming? That sure doesn't feel rewarding. But I tell you what, it is rewarding to believe that everyone has the potential to believe with all their heart that certainly God is not to blame. Everyone has that potential, whether they follow through or not is up to them.

And about this Gods' omnipotence vs. the free will of man subject, I am studying this topic right now, as it interests me. I am still clarifying my thoughts on the matter, but I will throw this up in the air for now:

The First Commandment of God to Man:

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die." - Genesis 2:16-17

The first direct commandment conforms perfectly to God's original design for mankind. For when God created man, He made him in His own image (Genesis 1:26-27). That image accounts for man's great value to God and distinguishes human beings from all other earthly creatures. Only man was outfitted with the determinative features of personality: intellect, emotion, and will. Only man was assigned a position of responsibility requiring the exercise of those attributes of the soul. If man were to make his decisions as a function of instict, he would be no different from the animals. If he required direct input from the Creator for every choice, he would be no more than a manipulated robot. By God's design, only the image-bearer approaches decisions in the same manner as the Creator. Within boundaries prescribed by God's own character, man analyzes, evaluates, judges, and freely determines his own choices. Only man was given the competence to make free judgements. And only man was given the dignity of bearing full responsibility for the consequences of his choices. - John White, The Cost of Commitment

It is a demonstration of God's goodness that He began His first commandment with a declaration of the extent of Adam's freedom of choice: "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely." Then He added the single restriction with clear explanation of the consequence of violation.

In this very first commandment, the freedom which was then assumed was clearly stated, revealing God's graciousness and refuting in advance Satan's allegation that God is a tyrant (Genesis 3:1-5).

The introduction of sin into human nature and experience did not require that the principle of freedom within revealed limits be revoked. However, it did require a more extensive revelation of God's moral will and character. For the fallen heart is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9), and man's nature is now oriented away from God rather than toward Him (Romans 8:7-8). And so the area of freedom became more restricted as the limits of God's will were spelled out.

But clearly God has given man dominion over the world. It was His gift for His creation. Genesis 1:28-30 shows that God put man on the earth and basically said, "Here you go. You are free to subdue the earth, exercise dominion over the animal creation, care for the Garden of Eden and enjoy it's fruit, except for the fruit of the tree of knowledge and of good and evil." (The exception stated in Genesis 2:16-17 of course.)

Why was the tree there and what purpose does it serve? We don't know. We aren't given that information. Perhaps one day we will know. But we are clearly told not to eat of it. Of that we know, no excuses. Adam and Eve knew. They did it anyways. No excuses. Sin is the wedge that seperates us from God. Satan is the hammer that trys to pound it in. Jesus, God's Son, God's gift, part of God's own self, is the only real example of unconditional love and our Saviour. He is God's solution to the whole mess. And what a wonderful solution He is!

 

That's quite a claim, with no evidence.

I'm sick of people quoting the bible. It's a book. It was written by humans. It's been revised hundreds of times. It's riddled with inconsistencies. And, when it comes down to it, there isn't anything to suggest it was written under the influence of anything divine. Seriously, given a lifetime, I could craft a work of fiction similar to the bible. If I had a few friends to help me, it would be even quicker. Especially if we didn't take the time to get our stories straight before we published it.

I'm having difficulty with your claim that "perceived contradictions do not cause something not to exist". Contradictions DO cause something not to exist, so it must be my perception that is at fault. This is basically a polite way of saying "you don't know what you're talking about". When something like that is said, it requires some sort of explanation... perhaps an example or some proof.

To take my earlier example, you cannot have a spherical cube. By definition, a sphere has zero corners, and a cube has eight. Since 0!=8, you can't have something that has both of those attributes. The only way you can have something that is a "spherical cube" is to shift the definition of "spherical" or "cube", or change the numbering system such that 0=8.

The same applies to my other arguments. The same being cannot have all those attributes unless you warp the meaning of the words.

 

I dreamed I stood upon a hill, and, lo!
The godly multitudes walked to and fro
Beneath, in Sabbath garments fitly clad,
With pious mien, appropriately sad,
While all the church bells made a solemn din --
A fire-alarm to those who lived in sin.
Then saw I gazing thoughtfully below,
With tranquil face, upon that holy show
A tall, spare figure in a robe of white,
Whose eyes diffused a melancholy light.
"God keep you, strange," I exclaimed. "You are
No doubt (your habit shows it) from afar;
And yet I entertain the hope that you,
Like these good people, are a Christian too."
He raised his eyes and with a look so stern
It made me with a thousand blushes burn
Replied -- his manner with disdain was spiced:
"What! I a Christian? No, indeed! I'm Christ."
G.J.

 

Judas, first and foremost I am not here to belittle you or smack you down. I'm doing this to say something in defense because everything deserves a fair defense. And most certainly a topic as important as Christianity deserves time and attention.

Now you may not like the Bible. You may not like its contents. But if you are going to study or talk about Christianity, wouldn't you think it quite important to study the Bible? And more generally, if you are going to discuss religion, you should not disregard applicable texts. Shoot, if we are to discuss spherical cubes we cannot ignore geometry. You've implied so yourself. So the selective regarding of central ideas to to their full extent has got to go. You cannot take the Bible so lightly if you are going to seriously discuss Christianity -- no matter how many flaws you perceive it to have.

And granted, the test of time and translation, as well as the incompetence of man has created seeds of doubt in the minds of men about the Bible's validity. But you can't hide behind others' shortcomings as an excuse. God gave us brains to discern. He gave us brains to choose. Are all choices good? Obviously not. Do we always discern information correctly? Obviously not. Like I said, it's a mess. On our own we cannot fix it. Only with Jesus can it be fixed.

Here are some points and the counterpoints to them:

1) "Why should I accept the Bible as the final authority?"

Answer: The Bible has survived all unbelievers.

"What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar" (Romans 3:3,4).

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness" (Second Timothy 3:16).

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away" (Mark 13:31). Words of Jesus.

2) "Does not the Bible have inconsistencies and contradictions in it?"

Answer: Where are they? The Bible is revelation.

"'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,' declares the Lord. 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts'" (Isiah 55:8,9). This goes for our words too. Did it ever occur to you our words cannot 100% accurately describe God, because He is so much more than us? A lesson in humility yes, but a most important one. This doesn't negate the fact that God loves us. We may be created in His image, but we are not He, Himself. That's impossible and blasphemy. That's what Satan seeks, but he'll never get it.

"Many will be purged, purified and refined; but the wicked will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand, but those that have insight will understand" (Daniel 12:10).

"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (First Corianthians 2:14).

"As also in his letters, speaking in them of these things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen" (Second Peter 3:16-18).

3) "God is unjust."

Answer: Who is God? Who are you? Injustice is sin. Do you mean to accuse God of sin? God is so just that He never demands two payments for one debt. Jesus paid your sin debt on the Cross - all of it. Therefore, when you accept Christ, you do not have that sin debt to pay.

Qoutable scripture: The whole Bible.
Read it.

4) "How can I know there is a God?"

Answer: There are three sources of material. First, there is the Bible. Second, there is nature. Third, there is man. These point to the Creator. None are possible by happenstance. None could be produced by accident.

"Because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them" (Romans 1:19).

"When I consider Thy heavens, the work of Thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which Thou hast ordained" (Psalms 8:3).

"By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of His mouth all their host" (Psalms 33:6).

5) "Why does God allow evil in this world?"

Answer: Freedom of choice is the Creator's great gift to the human race.

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants" (Deuteronomy 30:19).

Sin orginated in man, not in God. God prevents sin's dominion. (Romans 6:14).

God has, at His own cost, provided a remedy.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me" (John 14:6).

Notice that Jesus does not put emphasis on just getting to heaven, or getting a "reward". Nor does he put emphasis on staying away from eternal damnation. Sure these are all part of it. But the emphasis, is being reconciled with the Father.

It's not about living in a city of gold and pearly gates and escaping a lake of fire, its about being with our Creator and finally living in a realm where His vision is totally revealed to us. No Satan to spread doubt and lies and mistrust and sin. Just God, His faithful angels, and the believers. How it was meant to be, how it will be.

What's your choice? You have the freedom to choose. You aren't a robot. Think for yourself. You decide. Re-evaluate your decision if need be. I re-evaluate mine constantly, and I don't regret it.

[ September 22, 2002, 06:08: Message edited by: Big B ]

 

Wow... keep going like that and pretty soon we'll have the whole bible in the thread.

I didn't think you were. The "you don't know what you are talking about" part of my post was a request for some proof. I'm not personally offended.

As for the Bible... I own at least one copy. I've read it. I was raised as a Roman Catholic. I was baptised. I attended church for years. I attended a Christan school. I've sat through years of Religious Education. I was an altar boy. Seriously. I'm pretty familiar with the material.

Your argument is circular. When I asked you to provide some sort of proof as to the validity of the Bible, you quoted from it. I'm sorry, but you can't do that. You need OTHER sources.

As for your points:

1) Why should I accept the Bible as the final authority?

That's not a reason. It's just been passed around by those that DO believe. Something doesn't require universal acceptance to survive. And even if it DOES, that doesn't make it true.

2) "Does not the Bible have inconsistencies and contradictions in it?"

You haven't come across the inconsistencies? I assume you've read it... I don't know how you've missed them. There are summaries available on the internet. As an example, can you tell me exactly how Judas Iscariot died? I know of at least three different accounts. In one he hanged himself, in one he fell off a cliff, and in another he isn't dead at all.

3) "God is unjust."

No, I mean to accuse god of a failure to exist. Many DO NOT accept Christ, so they are not forgiven, right? So they DO suffer for eternity.

4) "How can I know there is a God?"

I still haven't seen any proof for the validity of the bible that didn't come from the bible, so I'll ignore that one for now. We're down to two. Well, man and nature are one thing - they're all part of the same environment. So I'll treat both points as one. This is basically the whole Evolution vs Creation argument. Just because something seems to have a bit of design to it, or exhibits a pattern or some structure does not mean an all powerful god created it. It's a pretty huge leap from "oh, this works well" to "God exists, and he built this".

5) "Why does God allow evil in this world?"

Because he's mean? Taking a nap? Lazy? Got something better to do? But seriously... what exactly IS Evil?

 

As it was mentioned before: the Bible is just a book. It was written by man. A lot of the writers weren't christians (Old Testament).The Bible is very interesting as a historical book. In the Old Testament there is more than one god mentioned. Elohim is plural, Jahwe is singular.
Don't get me wrong, i'm believing in a "higher" principle, which one can call god. But it's not the christian god (long white beard, sandals).
I'm not even a christian.
And i don't want to convince anyone, i'm not enlightened at all. Religious belief seems to be very individual and it makes living easier.

 

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
(Epicurus)

Then, of course, free will. The freedom to choose, or so they say.

However, if God truly is omniscient, and already knows all that is, was and will be, the surely he already knows wich people will choose the path of evil and be damned to everlasting torment. Yet he creates these people nonetheless, knowing full well that they are destined to Hell. As God is perfect and cannot be wrong, they *will* sin and be damned. If this is true, then there is no free will.

If, however, there *is* free will, and people can choose the path of evil or righteousness by themselves and God *doesn´t* know beforehand wether they will be saved or damned... then he is not omniscient.

 

First and foremost: I would like to congratulate Judas on this most marvelous thing thing he said: 3) "God is unjust."

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Answer: Who is God? Who are you? Injustice is sin. Do you mean to accuse God of sin?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, I mean to accuse god of a failure to exist.

I find that simply marvelous and will use it in many similar arguments to come. Why don't you treat us to your theory on Judas's betrayel as well? I found that most interesting.
Another good inconsistancy is Jesus's last words. One version goes: "My Lord, Why have you forsaken me?" and the other: "Into your hands I commend my spirit."
I believe there was a Jesus, but he was simply a fanaticaly good man.