Archer vs Fighter/Mage vs Ranger/Cleric

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Hello, new to the forums - what an excellent source of info! I've had BGII collecting dust in a box and finally decided to install it to commemorate the cooler weather. I'm anxious to get started but I love agonizing over the perfect character to create.

In BG1 (and even in my old AD&D days) I have always played a paladin, (typical night-in-shining armor syndrome)... but seeing that there is already a strong NPC paladin in SOA (Keldorn), I was thinking that perhaps I should mix it up, try something more interesting. Specifically, I'm thinking of having a good ranged fighter (love those missiles), then using Keldorn and Misc as my "tanks".

My options:

1) Archer (elf). Very interesting category. I rolled a good one: 18/21 19 17 10 18 10, and I have a good feeling about her. My concerns are: is she too specialized; and with Keldorn and Misc also in the party, will I be lacking in spell-casting options? (note: I also like Jaheira, I'm sentimental...)

2) DC Fighter(9)/Mage(x). Never played a spellcaster before but this may be the time to try it. Would specialize in longbow. Then you have a character at the back of the group who can do both spellcasting and ranged attacks, but can also engage in melee if needed (though with poor AC). This seems a good strategy but I hear little talk of it - are DC F/Ms allowed to use bows?

3) DC Ranger(?)/Cleric(x). I hear many good things about this combo, great melee and spellcasting abilities. Problem is, it seems that an R/C cannot use a bow, so I would put her in the front/middle lines and maybe use Mazzy (or one of the thieves?) as my ranged attacker. Also, I would miss not being able to use bladed weapons, I know it's a bit silly - I just think they are so cool, and there are so many fun ones around. Plus, I think I prefer mage spells and it seems like there aren't many high-quality mage NPCs in the game (there's Edwin, but it may be difficult to keep him and Keldorn in the party). But I'd give them up if it's worth it, for a fun new character... interested in your opinions on this, and the other choices.

I know this is a long post, but it's been awhile since I've been able to geek out on all this stuff - any help is much appreciated!

 

If you prefer to play paladins, play a paladin -- there can never be too many paladins (just ask the Order). I happen to like the Cavalier, a lot of people like the Inquisitor better (but that's Keldorn's kit). The undead hunter really get an early leg up in the game.

Any class is fine for playing the game and going on to ToB (which I recommend installing). All classes have unique quests and fun things about them -- thieves and bards are really fun in SoA and have the best strongholds IMO (although the Wizard's is good too).

The Archer is fun character to play -- by high level, with the right choice of gear, the majority of enemies won't even get near you. Add to the fray a couple of mages and you really have a good long distance killing party.

With the spells available a dual classed fighter/mage can be the most deadly tank in the game. Often people choose a kit -- Berserker works very well as does the Kensai. Alas, the Berserker and Kensai are limited in using bows; however, that is really not much of a disadvantage. You will have the opportunity to add any of several mage characters to your party. So don't feel the need to have you main character be a mage.

I think the multiclassed Ranger/Cleric is a better character than the dual classed version -- but that's a preference. This is one of the most versatile and powerful characters in the game. Excellent melee and spell casting capabilities. The weapon choices in the game for a R/C are quite good.

A couple of things... while missile weapons are still potent in BG2, they are outshined by many of the special melee weapons in the game. There are two short bows that allow unlimited arrows -- but arrows are fairly common to find. Short bow is a better choice than long bow, but there are a couple of good long bows that do great damage.

Have fun.

 

I agree with with T2Bruno, the fact that Keldorn is an Inquisitor is no reason for not playing a paladin.

Of the three classes you mentioned you'll most likely like the archer the most.
A fighter9/mage is just a mage (mage is a the most powerful class, but having many mages in the party can be annoying since you have to micromanage spellcasting) with extra hitpoints and physical power, a ranger/cleric is a just a cleric who has twice as many attacks per round and access to druid spell. If you want to play one, I recommend dualclassing right at the start at ranger level 7.

I recommend not planning your party before starting the game, you don't know if and when you'll meet them and if you like their personality (unless you want to be a walkthrough hugging robot).

 

i would never dual class the ranger/cleric

it's just not worth it, you miss the HL and stuff like that

 

Dualclassing yields the far more powerful character during the game. The dualclass gets cleric levels much faster which means more and higher level spells with better spell effects to cast. During the game he also has superior combat power, at the SoA XPCap the dualclass has more hitpoints, more weapon profiency points and a better thac0 than the multiclass version, which gets only a little useless bonus to stealth.

For the multiclass version to get an advantage you have to play the expansion and even then you won't surpass the dualclass (which will still have spellcasting advantages) before the game is nearly over. But since Lucina doesn't have ToB (this is the SoA forum) this won't ever happen.

 

My first BG II character was an archer, and I loved him. There are more powerful classes, yes, but this one is just fine. If you're going for fun, there's nothing wrong with the archer. If you're trying to powergame (nothing wrong with that, btw), then the archer isn't the best.

The fighter/mage is also a powerful combination, especially with spells like stoneskin and mirror image. Ignore the weapon spells, as you'll have access to plenty of more powerful weapons in the game. Another nice spell is Melf's Minute Meteorite. I swear, all my mages live by that spell. Honestly, though, I can't help but think a back-row fighter/mage is a waste. Start out as either a berzerker (more HP to burn) or a kensai (natural AC) and you shouldn't have too much problem in melee.

I've never tried a ranger/cleric, but I can see the powerful attraction. If you do, specialize in war hammers. Trust me, you'll thank me later.

Other powerful combinations to consider, if you're thinking powergaming, DC/MC fighter/thief. Sneaking, plus traps, plus backstab, plus an awesome thaco and good AC. If you're playing ToB (expansion), you'll love the potential Higher Level Ability combos. I also love the fighter/mage/cleric. Lots of magic, and much of it melee oriented. Plus, you can't go wrong with Contingency: Heal, Stoneskin, Blade Barrier.

 

Thanks, these are great tips, I do appreciate the cautions against overplanning my party and micromanaging spellcasters.

I'm trying out a fighter that I can dual to mage (18/00 18 17 18 8 8). Problem with the fighter is, with the 18/00 strength bonuses, I'll be sad when it's time to dual because it's just too fun to hack and slash with her. I would use the trick of kicking everyone out of the party and learning a ton of scrolls to gain levels quickly, but I imagine you still have to wait awhile before you can get your fighter abilities back.

Still, would be one heck of a character - I like the idea of a powerful fighter that can also cast some good spells. I now see that Berserker would have been a good class to pick, but too late now... plus, with my original intention of making her a ranged fighter, I put * into long sword, **** into longbow and * into single weapon style, (I forgot that strength bonuses don't apply to missiles, oh well). I guess my thinking was a F/M would be good firing missles and magic from the back - due to the mage armour limitations and to prevent spellcasting from being interrupted. I sometimes found that my mage (Edwin) in BG1 was kind of boring because if you weren't casting spells all he could do was fling darts. Hence, when not spellcasting, a good ranged F/M could be doing some pretty effective missile damage - and still be handy in melee.

I could always create another fighter though - it's just good to play around a bit, to remember how it all works.

The archer I created is great too, it's nice picking monsters off from afar, and the hit/damage bonuses are surprising (an Elf w/19 dex). Plus 18/21 strength, can still kick some a** in melee. So I'm still a bit torn. Since, as you can tell, I'm somewhat lacking in experience (never finished BG1, which I can't continue playing in Mac OSX), so the archer might be better for me, more fun, less fiddling...

Mind you, I may install TOB later - depends if I can through SOA before work gets in the way! Any further comments appreciated.

 

Can night really wear armor?

I suggest playing any of the above classes. F/M (F/Ill actually) is my favorite, but they're all great!

 

Next to the ridiculousness of Sorcerers, perhaps even more so than Sorcerers, Fighter/Mage multiclasses have always been my favourite characters to play. They are just so versatile with what they can do with the spells you get in AD&D and in BG2 in particular. I cannot help but think that specialising in ranged attacks is a fallacy for such a character, though. With spells like Tenser's Transformation, Stoneskin, Mirror Image, Improved Invisibility etc, I tend to use them as tanks with great buffing capacity. They never have poor AC with spells like Shield, Ghost/Spirit Armor etc, and with Blur and so on they get better AC than Fighters. (damn imba mages!) I never bring out the big guns until truly necessary, of course, but the power you can get from some spells is unquestionable - I could take out the party on the top floor of that inn in Athkatla solo with minimum difficulty (I forgot what it's called - it's been ages since I've played). Also, weapon spells are not entirely useless. I always use Create Magical Weapon or whatever until I find a good permanent +3 sword or two, the longswords created from that spell are very useful until I do. Not only that, but things like Phantom Blade come into their own in the hands of a warrior-wizard, and Black Blade of Disaster is as far as I am concerned the BEST weapon in the game. It has 2d12(!) base damage, adds +5, hits as +5 or +6, forces a save or die (it doesn't disintegrate as per the spell... items don't disappear) and automatically gives you a 5* proficiency in its weapon category (Bastard Sword).

Yes, I am biased. I apologise. It's been ages since I've played Baldur's Gate and coming back just brings in the memories.

As self-buffing melée tanks go, Dwarven Fighter/Clerics will be in second place for me I think. Taking one through BG1 was great - Draw Upon Holy Might and all the other cleric buffs are strong at low levels, and the saving throw bonus you get from constitution is ****ing ridiculous. I've played R/Cs, and they are a similar combination, but with lower HP and saving throws as the tradeoff for being able to cast all divine spells including Druidic ones. It's your choice, really - but as the access to Druid spells is really an engine bug, I've stopped doing it.

As far as Archers go, I would not hesitate to recommend one. Elven of course for the extra Dexterity. There are better classes for the higher levels, of course, but archers are still strong, and during the low levels are incredibly powerful. They have better THAC0 progression than any other fighting class other than the Kensai, I believe, and they can attack from the distance. They _never miss_ and they fire fast and often, and Called Shot only adds to the fun and death you can rain from the back row. A fun bug to take advantage of, perhaps, is this: when using weapons that use unlimited ammunition, such as Gesen's Shortbow or whatever, put ammunition into your ammo slots. The damage dealt will be the combined damage of your ammunition + the bow's own ammunition. Unfortunately, the shot will hit as the +enhancement of your ammo, so if your shots are ineffective, remove the ammo and fire from the weapon, less damage but hey. It's a pity that so many higher level enemies have high piercing resistance, and archer damage doesn't quite scale with levels, because without it, archers would be powerhouses.

 

Sound choices. The fact that Keldorn is a Paladin shouldn't influence you. Paladins may not be as powerful as Ranger/Cleric when it comes to spellcasting but they can be really good characters to play (no pun intended).

 

Dual Classing fighter/mage is only an option if you're not really looking for a frontliner for your main character. The THAC0 bonusses for fighters don't really kick in until the higher levels and you're missing out on the HLA's that fighters get. I would personally pick a multiclass fighter/mage. Yes you'll get less spells, but it will be a far tougher main character. You won't be able to cast any level 9 spells from your spellbook, but there's plenty of scrolls to collect and when you start ToB you can get up there as well.

If you're looking for a dual class with a mage, you might as well go for Swashbuckler/mage. First off a high level swashbuckler requires much less experience points, he gains bonus to AC and to hit and damage evening out the bonusses the fighter gets. Plus he's allowed to spend two points of proficiency in any weapon a thief can use. Overall a better choice.
I read that a lot of people like Kensai/Mage, but that won't allow you to wear any armor or bracers at all. Sure you get some nifty attack bonusses, but he won't last long at all in a heavy fight. Plus if your main character can sneak around the place as well as kick ass and cast spells I'd gladly sacrifice an extra attack per turn.

I'm currently multiclassing a druid/fighter. I did a comparison on a dual class fighter/druid, but it's just not worth it in the long run. Sure it takes forever to get to level 15, but that doesn't matter in ToB. You can still end with a level 24 druid and have a lot better THAC0 plus insane HLA's.

I've seen people play archers and they can really do A LOT of damage, but I like my main character to run around the place with boots of speed and wreak havoc. Archery just isn't my thing.

 

I don't understand how Kensai/Mages won't last in a heavy fight. If you're playing with a party, and he's not your primary spellcaster, I can understand saving the Robe of Vecna for someone more deserving. But really, a mage's armour is in his spells. Just a simple casting of Spirit Armour and it'll be as if the guy's wearing full plate. It lasts for plenty of turns, too, as I recall, and gives bonuses to saves, so why not? That's not without getting started on his other defenses, such as Protection from Magical Weapons, Stoneskin, Mirror Image, and Fireshield Violet (stacking is fun!). Really, with the ease and frequency of resting, and the spells present in BG2, it is the straight melée fighters who get the short end of the stick. With Throne of Bhaal installed I would say that the multiclass is more powerful because they draw HLA's from two class pools, there is no chance of them not getting both of their +1/2 attack/round bonus, and they are easier to play through all levels (no dualclass vulnerability).

That said, in standard Shadows of Amn, a Kensai/Mage is a cookie cutter game-breaking build if used correctly. Kai with Improved Haste and Crom Faeyr can be very entertaining. I am somewhat skeptical of multiclasses that that involve splitting Thief with Mage. The Thief just doesn't bring enough to the table to make it worthwhile, IMO. All non-combat thieving abilities could easily be done by another character who would be more effective with the class, such as Fighter which would make for impressive backstabbing, or a pure Assassin, and outside of Project Image cheese or Time Stop + Energy Blades/Assassination/etc I don't see what else is worth it. It would seem that any class would gain variety and versatility from a Fighter multi, and Mage/Clerics can make for some creative and devastating spell combinations, especially endgame (and they are also walking loremachines due to stats, while being arguably more useful than Bards), but I somehow don't see Mage/Thief working as well as one might think.

Feel free to note of course that anything is justifiable under an RP perspective and I would respect that decision. I'm just outlining my opinions from my powergaming point of view.

 

No, I understand the set-up works with the correct spells and such. I somewhat combine powergaming and RPing. I just don't want to throw everything on protective spells that can be easily dispelled. Many higher classed enemies cast dispell/remove magic before even going into battle. From a powergaming perspective, I'd rather have a character that can hold his own without having to micromanage his activities. If you're surrounded by several high class enemies and your protections are gone your Kensai/Mage will be chopped to bits before he can say "kai". In ToB your Kensai abilities are nullified with everything else you gain in terms of abilities and equipment as well. In SoA you'll want at least 9 levels in your Kensai, making him very vulnerable for a good part of the game until his abilities are unlocked again. Plus he cannot use bracers (Extraordinary weapon expertise). He'll be a better mage by the end of SoA, but that will be caught up straight from the start of ToB. The +1 to attack and hit are nullified as well. You'll be hard pressed to get your Kensai/Mage under 0 THAC0 as well.

Any setup is a gamebreaking build imo. I played most classes and all of them can become very very powerful, I even quit playing my berserker/cleric because it became boring. Sure you don't put a sorceror on the frontline, but even a blade can hold his own.

I'd pick a dual swashbuckler/mage so you're not required to have a thief in your party. There are only two thieves worth mentioning in the game, and one of them I don't pick anymore because I know what is to come. This means I'm ALWAYS stuck with that same character in my party. A multiclassed thief/anything would only interest me because of the HLA's spiketrap/time trap/use any item. That would require reaching 3M experience though.

At the moment I'm going through SoA/ToB as a multiclassed Druid/Fighter with the following party:
Sarevok
Jaheira
Jan
Cernd
Haer'Dalis

Most fights are over before they start. I never knew three druids would kick so much ass. I went through the entire Watchers Keep starting at 500K experience.

 

Actually, backstabbing is made MUCH easier with a mage/theif. A normal theif can only pull off one backstab before being swamped by enemies. A mage/thief can use spells such as (improved) invisibility, shadow door, and mislead (cheese) as well as (improved) haste to run away. Yes, you can usually pull the same thing off with boots of speed and a ring of invisibility. A mislead spell works wonders the way improved invisibility should have.

 

If you are going to dual-class from fighter to mage I recommend you NOT use a long-sword with a longbow. I would recommend a 2-handed weapon like a Halberd or 2-handed sword rather than a long sword. There are a couple of places in SoA where you can get Elven Chain (I recommend joining Bodhi when the time is right). You can wear it and thus have decent armor as you cast spells.

IMO the extra dot in single handed fighting isn't worth it when you can lower your AC in other ways and give yourself a much better 2-handed weapon as well. As a bow is a 2-handed weapon and so is a halberd the mid-combat switch is smooth.

If you really want to use a longsword then simply use a shield in the other hand. This can give a much better AC bonus than using up one of your (valuable) WP slots on single handed fighting when you get a good shield. The only problem with this is pausing the game and digging the shield out of your inventory when you are done using a bow but it works better overall.

 

Archers, F/Ms, and R/Cs are all very powerful classes, 'tis true dear friends...

It really depends on what you want to play...

The archer is a very different experience than the typical tank class and is very powerful...longbows can be very useful for this class because there are some very powerful ones, while shortbows are limited for most of the game until you assemble Tansheron's. The archer is also a wonderful SOA solo class thanks to the stealth ability...this won't work in every circumstance, but in some areas, like the wooded places (druid's grove especially), scouting and sniping from the shadows works wonders!

The F/M's power is quite clear and SOA has many wonderful items to support F/Ms, including, but not limited to, Dakkon's Zerth Blade katana (from the bonus CD), Vhailor's Helm (from the bonus CD), Valygar's armor (if you choose to wear it), etc. ... in addition to the powerful spell enhancements like all the great defensive ones, stoneskin and mirror image, plus the higher-level improved haste and tenser's transformation...many options to make a strong melee class even stronger...fighters dualled to mages can end out even more powerful in SOA but are best used in groups to lean on companions when regaining those levels...

The R/C's power is also quite wondeful if you're fond of divine spells...of course, for whatever reason, they get access to all druid and all cleric spells, so they can be wonderful healers and buffers, and they also get powerful self-buffs from the cleric line (draw upon holy might, holy power) and powerful self-buffs from the druid line (iron skins) that make them a melee terror at higher levels...

At a high-level, both F/M's and R/C's can summon skeletal warriors which are invaluable allies that can turn mindflayers in to sushi platters...

They are all wonderful choices will not disappoint you in the power department, it's really about your preference for what flavor of experience you seek, dear friends...

 

Have your Archer character and NPC Mazzy at the back firing acid arrows while Keldorn tanks in.

That combo pretty much kills all. Mages, Dragons etc. The 'monster' can't get off a spell, so no buffs, and if Mazzy has her Tuigan bow you have up to 10 arrow attacks going in doing hideous (and constant) damage while Keldorn mops up. And if he has his 'special' sword...he gets rid of early buffs from the critter (which is nice of him).

Done and done!!!

 

Archers are extremely powerful, especially against single powerful monsters. Very few things in BG2 are immune to stat drain, so with stat drain + GWW, or just a fast bow + improved haste + stat drain, you can often kill anything very quickly by draining their Str into the negatives (which insta-kills). Heck, you can even kill "unkillable" characters and break the plot this way if you want (though its not a good idea)

 

Thanks for that bit of info. It seems that if you lower any ability score to 0 the person/creature dies. That is nice to know as you can either lower STR as an archer or INT as a mind flayer. A shapechange spell could be very helpful at the right time, thanks again.

 

Yes, as a mage you can kill almost anything by doing timestop + polymorph self (mindflayer). When time is stopped you will make every hit no matter what, so you have quite a few guaranteed intelligence drains and can kill almost anything.