Means to *decrease* Reputation ? (!)

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(without cheats / shadowkeeper evidently).

Hi,

i just (at last) bought this wonderful game (+tob) after having played to the BG1 serie a few years ago... but i have now a very simple newbie question concerning "evil" characters parties (there are simply too good and interesting evil characters not to want to try them at least one time in this game: korgan, edwin and viconia for exemple.. to renounce to them simply for this game very basic increasing reputation mecanic would be really frustrating.. especially for viconia romance, plus to see the "relations" and "funny" personalities of the other bad boys!!) :

But how to maintain a maximum and constant 17/18 rep, to avoid the inevitable "evil" party clash if rep goes above this ???

Is there simple nasty ways to be able to SLIGHTLY decrease the reputation... like in BG1 missing thieving on common people on the streets (-1) or simply *harm* innocent people in the street (but not kill them.. than this is -8 at once in bg2, lol: a little too much and extremist all the same for me, poor evil guys : condemn to kill to decrease their 'infamous' public excellent positive high rep, arf ?!! )(like.. ahem.. poor beggars or halflings in the slums -they are real nasty guys just crying if their awful reputation is too high -a complete deshonor for them for the game apparently then : joke!.. -, remember.. as if in reality real total **ùù** bad guys didn't want to be disguised under ultra honorable clothes, sigh... real bad guys are not stupid!.. ).

Apart killing a poor innocent people that always work (-8 !..) i see nothing for now... simple "miss thieving" and "harm innocent people" (for a fair -1) simply doens"t seem to work in BG2...

Is there other 'simple' cheesy ways like this, just to be able to maintain those bad boys groups ?!?

Evil specialists, what were yours tactics to maintain your groups with the game mecanisms ??!

TIA !

I just want to try at least once edwin, korgan, viconia, arf.. without having to trash their possible xps levelling (renounce to rep quest and their rewards, above 17 !!? no way! This would be not fair! ) ..

nb:
not just the simple viconia (+ bad guys) trick in/out before quest rewards (without talking of the loss of xp then)... i would like to see a "romance" with viconia to the end too, if possible, for the fun of it compared to the 2 others (very easy to get, those ones, no need to be einstein.. sigh .. viconia seems to be more.. rewarding and funny to try, to be honest.. but also much more complicated due to those Reputation rules apparently... whatever we do, this infamous reputation keeps growing, this is a real curse for evil character apparently in this game : i love this joke compared to reality!!... Real bad *ùù*ù* guys *love* to have fabulous honorable public reputations usually when they are smart, and usually they are.. this is a point i will never understand in D&D rules.. for dumb (INT<8) evil characters maybe, but not for "intelligent" really pervert smart ones like edwin/saverok!... ).

 

kicking out and rejoining Viconia will take your rep to 18

 

Yep, but if i want to complete a romance with her ? arg

 

Getting caught picking pockets will lower your rep by 2.

For strategy... try pick pocketing an isolated person, so that the nearby townspeople won't join in trying to chase you with pitchforks.

Then "hold person" or paralyze them, because many will try to kill you, even though they don't have a prayer. Make sure your over-eager party doesn't react and try to kill them in return.

Then walk away and avoid that part of town in the future.

 

Thx, Tayja.

Yes, this is what i thought too : Yoshimo is even ideal for this.. he is almost certain to miserably miss every pickpocketing actions.. (not like my lv11 blade bard that is already at 120 with corronet 'hidden' +20 gauntlets and is already a real killer to steal almost every +1/+2/+ things with just 1/2 mastery thief potions if necessary, and even without them for simple things like this, now.. ideal to win easy money in the shops selling/thieving magical stuffs : money is already no more a problem.. i could even afford some "Robin Wood mentality" temple donations, if necessary to regain too much rep loss.. ,)) ).

The problem is that it doens't seem to work : i miss the pickpocketing (all is fine!), the person simply become (this is logical) an ennemy, begging to be killed in a simple blow/arrow.. but no -2.

Maybe this is because i tried this in the slums ??

nb: i have 17 glob rep.. should be 1 or 2 indeed (like in BG1).

Well, i'm going to test this again in other places, like marketplace isolated nobles then.. maybe they will be more ashamed ("please, just be ashamed to decreased my infamous unbearable always increasing high rep, i don't want to kill you!" ).

 

Shoplifting will lower it. Find a secluded merchant, preferably at the night:
Promenade has plenty of those
Bel Dalemark in the Bridge
fences: in Docks, Slums...
-not completely positive about fences-

 

Zvijer is right. Shoplifting works better. Remember to get a merchant that you don't want to shop from later.

[ February 09, 2003, 17:47: Message edited by: Tayja ]

 

SPOILER!
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After the Spellhold dungeon, you will gain the ability to become the Slayer. Each time you do so, your rep drops by 2. I've used this ability to avoid losing evil characters. Just don't drop too low or some really weird things can happen, apparently.

 

Yep. Slayerage and shoplifting are two good ones.

Wacking a bum is another, but it's kind of a last resort.

Other than that, there's really no other "good" ways. Sure, you can complete a quest evil. Or whack a guy, and pay cash at the temple to bring it up.

 

Thx a lot for your answers and suggestions, all. All the more when i saw that there was a "search" function on this excellent forum... and that i was not alone to have had such metaphysical questions for "evil" characters in parties !... Thx for your patience and kind replies once again so.

Yes, to conclude this, this is exactly what it seems :
- the great trick seems to be the "Slayer Transfo", yes: so, this one can really serve to something so (apart dangerously loosing hps if too long, i saw in the beginning of ToB testing new completely different high/medium level char possibilities..), great! Only problem: this is for the middle/end of the game so, not before (sigh). But then, this resolves immediately all those troubles; great.

I tested apart this for now (beginning of my first game.. i don't want to trash it.. :] ), just currently in Aklhata lv11, just after Coronet quick quests.. :

- Pickpocketing people :
VERY strange --> this simply doesn't seem to work for me, whatever i do, whatever the place, whatever the people (slums, markets, isolted houses, noble, peasant, etc). The people just become ennemy (sigh), no -1/-2 (for rep20). :,(

- Killing innocent people :
--> Humm... this is kinda THE jackpot for now: work everytime and "great" immediate result ! (lol) : -8
.. but a little too extremist for me and my liberal mentality even here.. :--) (and i don't have the 5000/6000 gp -i mean.. i have already 17000+ but i don't really want to waste it for this now) in order to recover the Rep up to a all-purpose/eventualities medium point again, in Temples -very easy- at this point of the game.. And not really the patience to do this everytime needed (sell/steal/donate.. rolleyes) I would much more prefer to be peacefully able to collect gold to buy quickly one of those glittering things at Deidre or Joluv or even Ribald, instead of donate to Temple (Robin Wood mentalities, forgive me ; this is for the good of everyone all the same at the end, lol, i need better equipments quickly, thx ), if you see what i mean..

- Miss Steal on a merchant :
BINGO too. -2
Problem ; the merchant seems to become PERMANENTLY hostile (sigh)... no more possible "deals" with them thereafter (aka sell/steal mentality i mean ). I charm them with a ring to calm them, this works.. but they still become hostile again after the effetc of the charm, etc (sigh)..
--> Is there a way to make them "forget" you, so that you can make "business" with them again later ?...

I already saw 2/3 not very useful merchants indeed for this in marketplace/etc (and/or already "used" for every possible interesting things with my gentle bard..). The "only" problem is that they are in a limited number all the same (for 2/3 possibilities big max). i would not want to alienate all the marchants in town for my little business!...

Thx for the tips anyway, again.
Comments on my last question on "marchants" ? Or is this "normal" too if the "miss pickpocketing on common people" don't produce for me a simple -1/-2 (for a 17 rep; exactly what i would need for) ?

nb:
as for the price of things.. (rep 17 -20%/ rep20 -50%).
With a good thief (here= my bard), this is not a problem anyway for 85% of the things in order to win easy money/cash/tools, so np... except for ultra rare ones at Deidre/Jolov/Ribald evidently.. But even here, i think that Rep 17 is a good compromise : With a good charisma (bard: excellent again for this), PLUS a little enhancing Ch tools (ring, sword, etc), PLUS if necessary a simple "Friend" spell.. Charisma goes up to 25.
At this moment, Rep 17 + Ch25, the price are somewhat reasonable again imo... the extra -30% lost compared with a Rep 20 is not so important at this point with the Selling/stealing bard/thief trick later. So, all in all, np.
--> The only problem is to maintain, so, a *constant* 17 rep, the most important here to have the "best compromise" in this "state of mind".

Nota: my goal is not to do necessarily a real "ultra evil party" mentality D&D roleplay... rather USE, trick and dupe some evil nasty vicious mentality bad guys in my party for all the same global "good" goal in the end for everyone... just doing little concessions here and there to release their sad "evil pulsions/pressures" (lol), for them to be tricked and be all the same "fooled enough" (just angry/sad, not breaking, lol), and thus cheated to do final good global things with the party.. a sort of cheating/fu*** evil personas wanting to cheat/fu*** themselves everyone (lol).. i find this very funny too. And the mix between ingénue/"goodie-goodie" (as i saw in another post; good expression!) personalities like Aerie and the likes, with much more bitter persona must be very funny/entertaining to listen imo...

My only real current concern is that i apparently will have all the same to definitely renounce to mix Viconia / Keldorn in the same party (inevitable personal clash from what i see/saw..), real BIIIG sigh... or the "maze" trick i see in another recent post (how btw?!).. but seems risky. -?

[ February 09, 2003, 17:34: Message edited by: gwenson ]

 

No, the merchants never become friendly again. That's why I suggested finding someone you don't really want to shop with.

The fence in the slums district near Jan's house is a good one. She only has some flaming arrows, and minor things. Steal what you want, first. *Then* get caught. Then charm or hold her.

There are 2 more fences in the Bridge district, near Neb's house. One is a woman selling potions and the other is a man selling scolls. (I hope I'm not misinforming you with information from a mod I downloaded.) They are both isolated too.

If you don't mind modifications... (ie if you don't consider them cheating), Weimer has an "ease of use mod" that lets evil characters stay with you when you have a high rep... among many other benefits.

http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/bgate/

 

Thx again, Tayja. Yes, this seems to be the best early game tactic so, those "no more needed" little fence/merchants... thx to them too!

Your url seems to be very interesting too! I don't want to "cheat" for this in my first game (yes, i consider this like a big helping cheat! ,)) ), so i would prefer the little more "difficulty/concentration level" implied with max rep17 after all : and if you have a good thief (one other true real moment to love having a good _stealing specialist_ one and use him like this.. with bad people in the party = ideal!), this is not a so bad thing after all... and this is giving the game a little more difficulty, not bad : if we don't have a good thief or don't know how to use him peacefully "at full throttle" (aka rob everything in sight, lol), on the other hand.. lol. But a good thief PLUS no limitation rep like this, would be too easy on the other hand... But your url give other things, i quickly see, seems great not just for this : thx again !

BTW, i noted a very strange (but interesting for me) BUG concerning Bards... the "Blades" are told in the manual/game creation screens to ONLY have 1/2 of Bard's natural thieving cap... this is not true apparently, they have in the game EXACTLY the same thieving skills than a "natural" bard (or jester, NOT skald)! I tested this too with ToB new char creations : exactly the same starting numbers and progressions too.. On the other hand, the Lore is really at 1/2 too comparatively to a 'true' bard (or jester, or skald), and this is completely adequate for me too now (especially when i just stole -*whistle*..- those glasses of identification in the slums thief house, 1st floor!.. all my identifications needs are already perfect anyway). The skalds have only, right this time, 1/4 natural bards THIEF abilities... this time this is REALLY extremely annoying for common things: he really can't steal nothing, another reason for me to completely prefer the Blades fun to them.. especialy when at lv25+, the blades will acquire the special ability "enhanced song" like other bards, that completely reduce to nothing the skald initial advantage on this (and only real true biginning disadvantage of blades!). Very happy with my Blade for now, so!... and really very fun to watch him dual handling from the beginning of the game too.. and be even more effective in total xp for party than this brave initial game minsc, lol (double katanas, then double stolen _*whistle*_ katana+1 are not bad in the beginnings apparently.. and with the interesting katanas available later, will be always really fun to always play with imo (especially with the one giving extra +1 attacks among other things, lol)... happy for now with this bard, even for stealing purpose so... 120 (100+20gloves) is perfectly ok fo now, it seems.. and this can only improve further later. Good compromise for a first game.. for now. And all the tests i did with standard equipment in ToB new char creation was very effective too for all the first ToB challenges, even more quick and neat than other class formulas from my quick tests, lol... and i just discovered that there was one special bard amulet allowing him to cast 1 lv7 spell in ToB too (simulacrum with enhanced bard song for exemple and other little new little tricks possiblitilies like this, etc, lol) ... will never be a kensai/mage, but will be closer to it at this point, and certainly much more fun/diversified too with his always increasing natural stealing cap and special and unique other rogue high level traps abilities too... among others (use all items, new real top notch song, etc) special abilities. With "use all item", i even plan to buy for him this shinny little ultra katana usually only usable by MONKS, i am sure this will complete and maintain his offensive spins / defensive spins performances (with "free move" spell/item evidently for the later) abilities... To sum up, i am VERY happy with my "sub par" "crappy" BLADE BARD for now... even for stealing purposes so... and even for helping having evil people in his party if necessary, even without mini cheats (/perpetual extra cash to compensate the max 17rep prices for special things), so...



[ February 09, 2003, 21:03: Message edited by: gwenson ]

 

You don't want to lose all fences, they are useful from time to time.

 

Heu... sure, surely! Thx you too btw.

Just the absolute minimum required a priori (+ the option of some unnecessary isolated merchants BEFORE), seems logical. until the mid game Slayer ability so. If there is only this real practical possibility in the beginnings, so be it, after all, anyway. With moderation and wisely if possible, sure! If possible! But seems at least a good momentaneous short term solution in case of absolute urgency in the beginnings, this is already this!

Thx for the tips.

 

On the case of romanicing Viccy and dropping her so you don't hit 20 rep ?

Spoiler below
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Okay, I'm currently doing a party with Viccy as my love interest, I've hit 18 rep, I've gone and done a lot of the quests, apart from the midn flayers in the temple district, the rogue stone doorway, and all the liches, and the Mazzy/Gorf quest which won't start for some reason, no matter. But anyway, after I hit 18 rep, I dropped Viconia on 3 occasions when I got the quest xp for the party. First time was Umar hills, second time was nebs head, and I don't remember what the third time was, but she's lost 50k of xp or so, unfortunate. But as for what happens and the solution and impact on a r'ship with Viccy?

When you're on 18 rep, if you go to 19 or 20 there is a chance of her leaving even if she ins in love with your main char. But when you're about to talk to the main guy to finish a quest of. You can go and drop Viconia, ask her to stay where she is and not go to the graveyard. Your rep goes back up to 20, you talk to the end quest person, your rep doesn't change, you then reaccept Viccy. I checked what happened to the lovetalk variables etc, and it doesn't damage your romance with her at all. Cheating slightly I guess, and it's only Jaheira's romance you can harm I believe by dropping her out of the party, but she doesn't overly care about rep apart from 19 and 20 and less than 5 rep, where she's unhappy, and unhappy to break respectively.

But there is two other solutions which may not be cosnidered cheating:

1) start off at anything other than Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic Good, I veleieve. Lawful neutral gives you 10 rep, and I don't think you can get more than 8 rep points in the game, if you can get 9, then consider Lawful evil at starting rep of 9; or if you want a slightly better solution if you don't want to go down so far alignment wise

2) there's a couple of quests you can complete that will give you only rep points:
i)circus tent- the city guard outside you don't have to talk to him I don't think, so you can skip talking to him, cos he only gives you rep, cos it's the boy who gives you xp;
ii)if you go and kill neb in the cleric's quests, which everyone can do the Sir Sarles quest, if you don't drop the head off to Inspector Brega, at the government district, you can skip that rep point, you also lose 25k of xp divided by the party by not going to him, but you dont have to talk to him to complete the quest; and
iii)again reporting to Brega and giving him Aegisfield's body, I don't remember if you get xp for dropping the body off in the Tirdis(sp?) quest, but you do get a rep point, and again like point ii) you don't have to go to Brega to complete the quest.

So, if you want Lawful Good rep at the start, want to keep Vic in the party, don't want to worry about hitting above 18 rep, if you do the quests in chapter 2 and 3 that you can do, you can quite easily skip some of the little quest things, and still give Vic maximum xp, just party wise you'll lose a bit of xp.

 

You can complete the slaver-quest in the Coppers Coronet in a evil way by telling the owner that Hendak wants to escape.

And you can also complete the Trademeet main-quest by poisoning the shrine. My rep. dropped from 14 to 6 by this. And made Viconia veeeery happy. I got my reward later in the game.

New gem, wohoo.

[ February 11, 2003, 18:32: Message edited by: Ivanji ]

 

SPOILER: Kill Uncle Lester's nephew in the graveyard. Your reputation will drop and no one will be around to see you.

 

be rude to the Lady of de Arnise Keep when you meet her doing the Arnise quest. should give you -2 rep. however if you pick 'wrong' answer in dialogue both (the lady and her guard) will become hostile. if you kill them thats -7 rep with no consequencies at all. apparently Nalia got no clue ...

or

in Ust Natha go to tavern. on 2nd floor theres a guy who will help you -1 rep for 100 gp or so. tho he wont let you do it more than twice/day i think.


edit:

i was reading thru this thread once more and just gotta say one thing:

brilliant!

[ March 07, 2003, 21:38: Message edited by: Deda Jag ]

 

I just use shadow keeper to keep the rep at a reasonable level. It is also fun to lower the rep just before Anomen takes his test!