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Bottomless Bag...

Discussion in 'Icewind Dale 2' started by Searcher, Jan 27, 2022.

  1. Searcher Gems: 1/31
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    I want to start with IWD2 and then immediately install the bottomless bag using DK2-Beta 5. When I open IWD2 afterwards, I don't see a Bottomless Bag character's inventory If I open DK2 again, the Botomless bag is in the inventory. That means DK2 does not save the Edited version of the file in the save directory where IWD2 looks in. What is the solution?
     
  2. SlickRCBD Gems: 29/31
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    Check the config that it's pointing to the right place.
    Goto "Settings" -> "Installation Directory".
    However, it sounds like a virtual store issue.
    I forgot, do you need to run IWD2 as an administrator on Vista or later?
    If so, try running DK2 as an administrator as well.

    If you don't have to run it as an admin, try putting DK2 in the IWD2 directory, then check the installation directory again.
     
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    @SlickRCBD:

    I did put DK@ in the IWD2 directory, an voila: everything worked!

    Thank You!

    I made a party of 2 human fighters, 1 elven fighter plus 1 human Mage. All party members are wearing crossbows and different melee weapons.
    Look what's going on when a enemy is nearing... A complete shower of bolts, he can't walk, can't think, just drop dead. That's my experience in IWD1EE...
    I'm curious about this party in IWD2...
     
  4. SlickRCBD Gems: 29/31
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    I'd have given at least half the fighters (the ones with the most STR) longbows to use all those magic arrows and the returning arrows. Plus you get a ton of normal arrows from enemy drops to the point that combined with the unlimited stacking part of IWD2Tweaks means I rarely have to buy arrows even if the majority of my party uses them. Less so with bolts and I don't recall any "unlimited ammo" bolts in IWD2.
    This saves you cash and bows tend to be better than crossbows most of the time due to a higher RoF. The advantage of the crossbow is that in 3E just about anybody can use one, while bows are limited to fighters, rangers, paladins, barbarians (basically it's limited to warriors but I can't recall if that term from the 2E PHB applies to 3E), and elves. Rogues can use shortbows.
    For that matter, I'd have mixed in some paladin, ranger, or barbarian levels to the fighters just for variety, but that's just personal preference as I like to have options and totally unnecessary.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2022
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    @SlickRCBD:

    OK I'l equip them with longbows.
    I have never played IWD2 before so I'm curiuos..

    In our answer you are talking about "higher ROF", what does that mean?
     
  6. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Rate of Fire. Most crossbows are slow (one shot per round), although there are a couple that allow two or even three, depending on how you deal with a certain area. Longbows are faster in general.
     
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    Yes, indeed, I have to look at the ROF !!
    Short bows are the fastest of the bows...
     
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    I'm not sure only taking four party members is the best idea for a first-time player. Taking six as intended by the developers might be better as it lets you play around with more classes to get a better feel for their strengths and weaknesses.
    Also lets you take both a cleric and a druid so you can experience both flavors of divine magic. Their spell lists are different, with the cleric focusing more on healing, buffing, and debuffing, and the druid having more offensive spells and summons.
    That isn't to say that the cleric doesn't get any summoning spells, they do get "animate dead" as a 3rd level spell, and is one of the best summon spells once you can summon greater boneguards, which can compete with other classes' 6th level spell summons.
     
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    Short bows vs long bows. In my experience there isn't any advantage to a mundane short bow vs a long bow. If your character has STR over 15 and the proficiency in long bows you probably want them to use a long bow over a short bow. IIRC the only advantage is that rogues that aren't elves can use short bows.
    Now magic short bows can be a different story, there are several good ones with additional properties, and a short bow+1 is probably better than a mundane long bow simply because on average you'll do an extra point of damage. Again, with magic bows a lot of time it comes down to the other properties more than making up for it. Also pay attention to if the bow gives a strength bonus to damage or not by paying attention to the damage rolls. A long bow that doesn't give a strength bonus is pretty much the same as a short bow, but quit a few long bows add strength modifiers to your damage like melee weapons even if it isn't spelled out in the description.

    Also on RoF, the darts have a higher RoF than the bows, but only do potentially half the damage of an arrow or bolt. So you get 3 attacks per round (APR), but only doing 1d3 damage while bows give you 2 APR with 1d6 damage. The math says that it's balanced in that you do an average of 2 damage with 3 chances so with a high BAB (Base Attack Bonus, replaces 2nd Editions' THAC0) it would be 6 damage per round. Bows would do an average of 3 damage and also an average of 6 damage per round in theory, however it seems that I kill enemies quicker with bows than with darts. Plus bows have a longer range. Also a bow+1 using arrows+1 does 1d6+2 points of damage while a dart+1 only does 1d3+1 damage. Both launchers (bow, x-bow, sling) and the projectile (arrow, bolt, bullet) can add modifiers and they stack.
    The darts might be useful for a pure mage to have who has a low BAB, so he gets 3 chances to hit and do some damage as opposed to a crossbow where he only gets one shot and will probably miss. The returning frost dart you get in chapter 3 (horde fortress) is useful here as well for this, but it has short range. I often equip both in different slots with the slow firing xbow for distant targets and the faster firing dart for closer targets.

    BTW, I find that missile weapons, especially bows and crossbows are most useful in chapter 2 when dealing with Torgas and his orcs in the Shangarne area, the fight with the Remorhaz Queen (unless you lure a male to it) as well as the showdown with Sherical in the Ice Temple. In a lot of other areas the enemies will charge you so you only get a couple shots in before having to switch to melee, and of course the golems in the ice temple are immune. Of course you can use a summon or a dominated monster to draw aggro and shoot the enemies from afar as they kill the dominated monster.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2022
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    @SlickRCBD:

    Many thanks for interesting information! I will get experience in the digfferences of bows!
     
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    Hey, you've got three fighters, experiment to see for yourself. Give one a crossbow like you planned, one a shortbow, and the elf a longbow.
    Try the sling, darts, and that returning throwing axe you get in chapter 2 out as well.
    Let the mage play with the crossbow with the best bonus to BAB or a sling with the best bonus, or some darts. Consider giving the mage the returning frost dart as he has a low chance to hit in later chapters along with keeping the magic darts on hand.
    I still think you really need a healer, either a cleric or druid. If this is your first play-through, take both.
    Heck, for a first time party I'd have recommended a cleric, a druid, a bard, a wizard or sorcerer, a thief rogue that you then multiclass to ranger, monk, fighter, or wizard (if going wizard take a pure sorcerer instead of two wizards), and any of the warrior types for a tank: Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, and Monk.
    The idea is you get to experiment with all the spell casting types, have somebody that can open locks and disable traps, and have a meat shield with high AC to draw aggro.
    Maybe not the best party, but lets you experiment with the game to get a feel for what you like.
    There are subtle differences in implementation as well as what enemies you are going up against that make different spells better in Baldur's Gate I, Icewind Dale I, Baldur's Gate II, Icewind Dale II, and Planescape Torment.
    Some of the differences are less subtle than others. For instance Charm Person was awesome in Baldur's Gate I and decent in Icewind Dale I, but far less useful in IWD2 because most of the time the charmed baddie just stands there doing nothing and gets ignored by the enemies. Dominate Person and to a lessor extent Dire Charm does what Charm Person did in the other IE game.
    Another example is that Web and Grease have a smaller AoE for good or ill in IWD2.
    Mirror Image also seems more powerful in IWD2 than in earlier games.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2022
  12. gibberishh Gems: 15/31
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    Darts vs Dagger vs Axes vs Hammers vs Sling vs Crossbow vs Bows

    SlickRCBD: Read your remark about giving mages darts. I also note that you are not actively recommending it, only mentioning it as an option, so read the rest of this with a handful of salt.

    I have my reasons for being vehemently opposed to darts. A good caster will be throwing out AOE damaging and/or disabling spells, many of which are party-unfriendly. Usually a rogue in the party can avoid most of the negative effects. A good warrior can take the hit if she doesn't save against it.

    But sorcs, wizards and bards need to stay away from the AOE given their low HP. They need long-range weapons. A very simple combo of web+stinking cloud can be devastating if the mage herself gets caught up in it. And given IWD2's AI (even though I have all scripts always set to None), even if you micro-control every party member, they always switch to another visible enemy when their opponent dies and you won't always be able to keep them outside the AOE because of this. For this singular reason, I don't even give my warriors any short-range missile weapons because imagine three of your front-liners sleeping in a stinking cloud!

    A second reason to give casters only long-range weapons is enemy behavior. If an enemy takes a fancy to your mage and your Chromatic Orb or Sleep isn't able to stop them in their tracks, a dart's range is so short that you'll have a hard time running away. A long-range weapon not only gives you enough distance, but also avoids turning the attention of enemies onto your caster.

    My personal preference is Slings because of the blunt damage, though I finished my most recent playthrough with my wizard wielding a crossbow. She got a crossbow that had 3 APR (Hell Bolter) from the duergar's bleeding corpse. Towards the end of the game, she got a Chain of Drakkas' Fury, which gave her an extra APR in addition to all its other goodness!

    Of course, the caster's choice of weapon is never really about damage -- whatever tiny damage they do is only a bonus on top of whatever the front-liners are doing.

    Throwing hammers have a decent range, but they are bloody heavy and require a point in Martial Weapon proficiency. In my last party, my primary fighter had 3 points in Hammer, so a returning Throwing Hammer +2 was an ideal missile choice for her. Axes are heavy too and also require a proficiency point. Daggers have a small range. So slings, bows and crossbows are the only viable choices for mages IMO. Then it depends on whether you want to spend a proficiency point on Missile Weapons (slings), Martial Weapon (bow), or if you are okay with the free crossbow proficiency.

    Your point about arrows is taken: there are some very good magical arrows (and returning arrows) in IWD2. I personally don't care about them for a mage because the magic portion of their effect should be coming from a mage's spells, and their +1 enchantment limitation means that you can't really hit many of the enemies you really want to apply those effects on! Sure Strike missiles (which behave like +5 weapons and can hit all enemies) don't have any magical properties. Plus enemies do drop lots and lots of good bolts and bullets. The mage, even with 4 APR, doesn't consume too much ammo because they are usually busy casting something. Their weapon damage only kicks in halfway or later in battles.
     
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    I am probably influenced by early games in the genre with time limits like Might and Magic II and Magic Candle.
    As such I try not to rest after every single skirmish, but try to conserve my limited resources like spells to go at least one area/map without resting unless there is a big battle (and there are quite a few awesome boss fights in IWD2 like the palisade battle, the fight with Torgoth, the Shangarn Bridge, the guy who casts Call Lightning outside the horde fortress, the top of the Horde Fortress, etc. Sherical was interesting as you can turn it into a puzzle boss and keep her stuck at the top of that balcony by manipulating the switches and turn her into a pincushion with ranged weapons if you use enchanted ammunition instead of selling it).
    Because of this, I have my mages spend their time firing missile weapons more than casting outside of major battles. I target enemy castors first, then archers, then helpless enemies. I only have mages melee helpless enemies, and only if it's a fighter that charged my lines and got hit with something like Hold Person. At that point I'll have the non-mages target active enemies and let the mages use their staff or dagger to finish off the helpless foe since it's an automatic hit.

    My point is that I make my mages spend most of their time firing crossbows or other weapons to conserve spells. Probably a mental problem with me, but my first experiences with the genre did encourage conserving spells. My introduction to the genre, Curse of the Azure Bonds had lots of areas where you could not rest after every skirmish, but had to find a safe place. Starting with the first area you got random encounters in the Thief's Guild in Tilvertown when it's attacked by Fire Knives.
    Again, probably my own hangups because I had games where you had to go multiple fights without rest.
     
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    I hate resting, though I am not as strict as you. I try to rest only before every big battle, though some maps require more resting. I never rest for health, only to refresh spells, and usually only where there's an NPC that offers a resting option. The one place I rested multiple times was the 8 chambers: my wizard solo-ed through it and had to rest 5 times to get through the 8 chambers because of limitations of high-level spell slots.

    You can always devise some strategy or other to stretch out your spells (at least in a 6-person party). E.g., I was able to clear out the whole drider lair in one go. I didn't use any spells in the outer underdark area. My invisible (potion) rogue explored and disarmed the whole visiscemera map and returned to the party at the entrance. She was then fully buffed (mostly cleric) including hasted (bard spell) and invisible again (scroll) and ran to the south-east corner of the map. After backstabbing a random enemy (to make herself visible), she trotted through the entire map to attract all enemies back to the entrance, stopping once in a while to make sure they were still following her. Her buffs allowed her to evade many of their hits, or just withstand some hits along the way.

    Meanwhile, the druid and wizard were busy setting up a cloud trap. The cleric and bard didn't have any cloud spells yet, and I really wish I had a second wizard or sorc instead of the bard quite a few times during the playthrough. I'd never played with a bard before in IWD2, so... Anyway, the rogue Pied Pipered about 50 driders and mushrooms into the AOE (dunno if 50 is an exaggeration or underestimate) and I went to town with normal disabling/damaging routines. The bard was finally useful (Slow, Emotion Despair, Necklace of Missiles), but the wizard and druid continued doing most of the damage. This is where my fighter and cleric (and eventually rogue) needed to stand outside the very potent AOE and used their throwing hammer, sling and bow respectively.

    The cleric was minimally useful in the battle. Mostly she cast Bless, Prayer and Recitation, and was able to throw a few weakening spells here and there. I so wish she was a high enough level to know Holy Word! Love seeing a mob of 20-30 monsters all stunned in a cloudkill. Web just doesn't give me the same satisfaction that Holy Word does. Heh

    I cleared the Hook Horrors, duergars and Yuan-ti temple (each separately) in exactly the same way, though I used a Mass Invisibility scroll to place my party at the end of the hook horror tunnel instead of the entrance. Sure, the game gets slowed down to single-digit FPS with so many clouds, but I find the gameplay much more satisfying this way -- clearing out huge hordes literally with fire and brimstone (and lightning and frost).

    I also wish IWD2 had more outdoor battles. Apart from Call Lightning, even low level druid spells like Entangle and Rainstorm are very useful, but there's very few opportunities to use them. And because I'm planning for long outdoor-indoor stretches to use my spells across, I almost never memorize any outdoor spells, especially from Goblin Warrens onward. :(
     
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    Bards can cast Grease, which while not as good as Entangle (slow instead of stop and smaller AoE) can help keep enemies in the kill zone for spells like cloudkill and entangle.
    I agree, the druids get some really nice outdoor-only spells that you hardly ever get to use.
    I personally try to memorize before and fire off "Rainstorm" during the battle with Sherical in the Ice Temple, but after that it just isn't powerful enough to memorize. Then again, most of the level 2 druid spells drop off in usefulness aside from Barkskin and minor elemental barrior with "Charm Person or Animal" and "Entangle" actually being more useful than most 2nd level druid spells.
    A couple times I've fired off Rainstorm in the Wandering Village map, but that's mostly because I forgot to change the spell load-out after the battle with Sherical. Why not use it while I'm outside on some canon fodder instead of just letting it go to waste?
     
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    Good point. Grease can be cast into an empty cloud while Slow can only be cast after the fodder arrives. If I have the mental wherewithal to choose a bard again, I'll add this to my usual casting order.

    I was just so disappointed with the bard's spell progression that I kept ignoring her! I remembered to use grease in the hook horror tunnel, but forgot about it most other times! In some battles my forgetfulness turned out to be useful though, because I needed the bard to sing her anti-panic song. I'm afraid (note the irony) of forgetting to sing after she finishes casting! :D
     
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    Bows/X-bows don't care about strength since they aren't modifyied by it which helps if giving it to a weaker character.
    - everlast and returning poison tipped arrows make bows the more convenient choice.
    - slings get +1enchanted returning flame bullets which is the most interesting of reusable ammo
    - Bows get x3 criticals so have more power in the late game with any amount of luck + executioner eyes support

    Rapid firing crossbows (as many attacks per round as you can get)
    Heavy Crossbow +1, Heavy Crossbow of Health +2, Heavy Crossbow of Defense +1, Spellward Heavy Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow of Accuracy +4, (Geloise, Hagnen's Folly, Mailripper,)--(plus heart of fury versions) Light Crossbow of Speed +1.

    Eagle Eye Light Crossbow +3 also works but I believe it can only drop in heart of fury diffculty so i'm keeping it separate.



    Heavy Crossbow +2-5 don't get more than 1 ATK per round so I think the +1 version is an unintended oversight

    --

    Ennelia has some nice rewards for saving Braston. If you reload enough she can give you either an Everlast arrow or the returning Mage Killer Throwing Axe, these are pretty good choices early on.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2022
  18. Sir Rechet

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    Lots of erroneous information in this thread, so let me put the record straight.

    - None of the ranged weapons in the game grant extra attacks, unless they specifically say so in the description. Specifically, darts and bows do not grant extra attacks, contrary to D&D rules.
    - Most crossbows limit your attacks to 1/round, making them the worst ranged weapon type by far. James listed the only ones capable of rapid fire above.
    - Only throwing hammers and axes, darts and slings grant strength damage bonus, making them ideal for high STR characters - rather than bows recommended above. The two-handed throwing axe from Kuldahar shop is the only ranged weapon granting the 1.5xSTR damage bonus, making it stand out despite its low enchantment level.
    - The "ranged weapons in melee" accuracy penalty only applies when you're right beside an enemy - specifically, being diagonally adjacent counts as being at range.
    - Rapid shot feat makes ranged weapons have damage advantage vs anything you can do in melee all through Normal mode, with the sole exception of needing two-handed weapons to break through damage resistances in a few spots, such as slimes in Vrek's cave at Shaengarne bridge and against Sherincal.

    So if you want a character doing damage, ditch those puny Greataxes and Two-handed swords on your high STR dudes and equip them with Rapid shot together with slings or throwing weapons. Including in melee range, if you're willing to micromanage their targeting choices. The "Haft over head" throwing axe gets a honorary title of being the meanest dps weapon available for quite a while, and it's low range makes it the ideal weapon for your party's tank!
     
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    That list is by no means exhaustive. As I said in a previous reply, my mage carried the Hell Bolter for almost half the campaign. It sometimes drops instead of the Doom Bolter, which is another such weapon. This was not in Heart of Fury. Additionally, with equipment that grants extra APR (ring, armor), one can get extra APR with any weapon -- at least the character sheet claims so. If it is not implemented as per the character sheet, then I don't know -- but I have noticed my ammo getting used up faster.

    In any case, I am personally partial to hammers and slings because I am biased towards blunt damage. Both take advantage of str, which is nice for at least half my party.

    While your description of melee-range attack and penalties for ranged weapons is technically correct, it is not very practical. If I am not able to disable enemy archers with spells, my front-liners (who are expected to do max damage) get up in their faces to either prevent them from shooting or force them into shooting with a penalty. I do this EVEN IF melee enemies are alive and surrounding me. They will surround me irrespective of where I stand, so why not stand right next to their archer? So those front-liners should ideally be wielding melee weapons themselves. The back of the line, with their average str scores (I wield slings usually), are not able to dish out too much damage in this scenario -- which is okay with me. (I take care to not get them surrounded.)

    If I am able to disable enemies with spells, then the dps is absolutely irrelevant to me and the only thing that matters is the enchantment level of my weapon and/or missile, i.e., whether I can hit the target or not. High or low dps, I will eventually bring them the death they deserve. High dps means lower ammo usage, but meh.

    The first target in any horde is enemy spellcasters. If I am able to do even 1 damage per round to them, I am happy, because that has a chance of disrupting their cast. With maybe 3 people targeting the mage or priest, that's 3 chances per round (at 1APR) of disrupting their cast (if all of them connect). So again, the dps is irrelevant to me, only whether my hits can connect.

    These are all isolated scenarios and actual combat doesn't work this way. Sometimes there will be lots of archers, 2-4 casters, lots of low-mid level melee combatants all together. Obviously each battle has to be worked out differently with varying degrees of efficiency. I have only described these isolated scenarios to illustrate my usage of ranged and melee weapons.
     
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    A lot of battles like to put archers in hard to reach places like up on ledges or towers, or across things like rivers or chasms. This makes it difficult to send your tanks to attack them as described.
    On the other hand, in those cases hitting them with something that causes Blindness is almost as good as hitting them with paralysis.

    BTW, was your mage wielding the bolter female? Is she part of the Sisters of Battle?
     
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