A fun jack of all char

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I've had this idea today. Some guy with no really special strenght threading easy-going through SoU and HotU.
Perhaps a bard/monk/arcane archer. Or something, doesnt really matter that much. I will however take all weapon proficency feats, meaning i'll wield whatever comes into my hands. I want some spells too of course to lighen things up a bit. Not really offensive ones... more subtle mind-affecting stuff. A few buffs to boot
I want monk class for being cool Others dont matter that much.
(btw, can bards be lawful?)

So, got any ideas?

 

How about monk/wizard?

I don't think so.

 

I figured out monk class isnt the best way to go if i want to change my equipment every 10 steps. Armor is completely limited to robes, weapons are inferior to fists in SoU & i'm basicaly limited to monk-specific items in general. A shame.

Somehow i want to add a PrCs to make things more interesting. Of the HotU ones Pale master and RDD seem a choice, though PM seems rather weak and RDD too powerful. I still prefer Pale master though.
Arcane archer is another choice, though i need two feats to get, and feats i sorely need.
Assassin is cool, but i dont want to end up hiding, stabbing, hiding, stabbing,... He's rather limited in anything else.
Blackguard is attractive, though a rather sick bastard.

Gee! i just dont know!
(i'll rather focus on the replies, better that way instead of rambling on every class my mind jumps to)

monk/wizard.
Items. Do correct me if i'm wrong, but this guy is supposed to kick opponents aided with monk specific items. Wizard makes it all better, to be sure. Still limited in the way of items.
In this aspect fighter'd be the best choice since he gets almost all weapon proficencies and all armor ones. He goes for weapon specialization though, which i dont like. Eventhough it is crude to wave around with various glowing/flaming/acid dripping pieces of metal all the time, it's still what the game offers on every step.
bard/pale master/Red dragon disciple?

 

I'm going to give you builds that let you use most things you find.

If you want the Monk:
Paladin 3/Monk 2/Rogue X
This way you get the same weapon feats as with fighter, you have your cool Monk level and you can get spells through scrolls with Use Magic Device along with other items.

Bettter build (but no Monk):
Barbarian 2/Bard X/ Red Dragon Disciple 10

Another cool build, has access to good levels of spells, has access too all weapons through spending feats:
Monk 7/Wizard 3/Pale Master X

Hmm, well, now you made me want to play that one.

At any rate, I don't understand how you can call the Pale Master underpowered, he gets lots of cool benefits, while losing only half the spellcasting power of a Wizard of the same level. Most people that find I underpowered, I discovered, forget he can cast higher level spells, even though he can't choose spells at level up, but he can learn them through scrolls still.

 

I think that Death Rabbit first had this idea, but it would absolutely rock at what you're looking for...

Monk / Sorcerer / RDD

Don't really have time to go into specifics right now...but I think it's the best.

 

That Monk 7/Wizard 3/Pale Master X looks really great
Tis really a shame it's touch attacks are limited per day. Liches have unlimited touch attacks AFAIK. Imagine a monk with such attacks
So, i have wizard lvl3 and Pale Master lvl4. Caster level is 3, meaning burning hands spell will do damage as if cast by lvl3 wizard. I'll gain new spells up the spell level ladder though?

@Hacken Shash
I'm sure it's a powerful build. High strenght with draconic armored skin and greater HD. It's however purely melee build, with no tricks other than fire spewing and kicking ass (granted, if the enemy has an ass
No magic either Not for me.

 

Well, actually, I don't really know how the spell level is handled, but I guess you're right with that only casting at the strength of a level 3 wizard. But seeing as what you like as spell, disabling ones, that isn't as much a problem as if you would be focusing on damage spells. The DC is mostly unaffected by caster level, only the duration of the effect.

Concerning those higher levels, yes, you will still advance on the ladder. Actually, you just have to add (PM levels +1)/2 rounded down to your wizard level to see what you can cast. The only downside with this build is that it relies on finding scrolls since unlike when you level as a Wizard, you can't choose new spells to scribe from the entire list. But you can scribe any scroll you find, as long as your level is high enough. This is something most people forget when playing PM and so they think they can't advance to higher level spells, which is totally wrong on their part. But you have to be a Wizard for it to work, since you don't get to pick new spells at level up, you will indeed be stuck with lowlevel spells if you take Sorcerer or Bard.

Ah, yes, I suggest you take Elf for this build and you might even try to add some skill points to Hide/Move Silently, since it is a class skill for both the Pale Master and the Monk. And besides, thinking RP wise, think of that mighty spellcaster stepping out of the shadows and unleashing magical mayhem on his foes

 

You know me Gothmog, over the top and overkill on everything...but there is magic involved, at least as many levels or sorcerer you take...and of course you always get the sorcerer spell scrolls, and I believe (and I've never gotten confirmation on this) that the game treats RDD levels as caster levels.

But you are right...I always tend to go with characters that hit hard and ask questions later

 

My, i'd be sweet. Hide, sneak on a rogue/assassin/shadowdancer use our unholy touch of paralysation and stun the poor schmuck. Then totaly and hideously rip his arm off and attach it to yourself. Proceed to boil the blood within the silly assassin
Yay!
You got yourself a new, undead and totaly rocking assassin arm + completely sucked the loser.

Beats even Hacken Slash hit-hard technique

Now, what i want is sorcerer/Pale master/Red Dragon Disciple. Prequisite-wise it's possible. Dont know if anyone can have 2 PrCs at once though.

 

Having a low # of wiz/sorc levels is usually not THAT helpful to most builds since the low caster level won't be an asset and the spells won't be that great, unless you just plan to use for buffs. Still, the buffs won't last that long and will be easily dispellable. Also, your caster level affects your ability to penetrate Spell Resistance so once you start fighting higher level creatures, what offensive spells you DO have won't amount to much at all.

And the DC on low-level wizard spells is... you guessed it... low! So expect enemies to make their saves ALL the time. DC for a spell is: 10 + (level of SPELL) + (ability modifier) + (feats)

So burning hands casted by a "Monk 7/Wizard 3/Pale Master X" with INT of 14 would do 3d4 damage with a reflex save (DC 13) for half damage. Pretty lame. Pale Master levels will not affect caster level! They'll only give you more spells to cast at certain milestones.

To quote Georg Zoeller, designer of HoTU: "No, the effective caster level is not affected by your pale master levels - unfortunately but that's how it is."

That also means it'll never change in a patch.

I second the notion that SD can make for some interesting builds. I have a feeling SD is probably superior to PM... HiPS is the ultimate cheese.

EDIT: Also, note that RDD should not affect the caster level of your sorc/bard spells... and same goes for Shifter/Druid (Shifter levels do not affect Druid spells)

[ May 04, 2004, 23:49: Message edited by: konny666 ]

 

I played a bard/AA through both expansion OCs. In HotU, I also mixed in several levels of RDD.

I've been thinking that a fighter/bard/RDD would be lots of fun as well. If you want to stay away from the Weapon Specialization trap, you can try Bard / CoT / RDD. The bard gives you spellcasting, stealth and UMD, Champion gives you the feats you want for using all the weapons plus a nice save bonus and CHA-based special abilities, and RDD will give you the stats to really clobber whatever gets in your way.

By the way, you can certainly go with 2 prestige classes at a time, as long as you meet the requirements for each.

 

If you want to try out a Fighter / Bard / RDD, check out the "Ultimate Melee Character Guide" found here.

I've read it and found it to be brilliant, touching, tragic and humorous all at the same time.

sorry, don't mean to self-promote

 

Well, Hacken, I can positively refute the RDD levels affecting the caster level of your sorc. Trust me on this, I tried it out

To Konny666, I have to say you are totally right and totally wrong. You are right on the fact that the offensive spells suck and that you have a difficult time against SR enemies. But you are wrong in thinking that is the domain of the PM. PM is clearly melee oriented, getting a good touch ability, huge AC bonus and gets almost as much HP as a fighter with the same Con. The spells are used for buffing your build.

But concerning my own build, I have a few corrections. I looked again at what abilities are gained by the Monk at what levels and came to the conclusion you don't get much from the extra two levels past 5. So my new build is Monk 5/Wizard 5/PM X. This way you lose the healing ability of the Monk (which sucks any way at the low level you monk is) and you lose 1 bab. On the other hand you gain two extra effective caster levels and you get a metamagic feat, which I suggest you use to take extend spell. The only part that really hurts is that you also lose an extra attack So it is your call

Now how to use it is simple, start of as Monk. Then take Wizard and PM levels, but prefer the PM above the Wizard when leveling. The only exception is at the levels on which you can make a skill a multiple of 5 (ie level 2,7,12 and 17). On those levels take a level of Monk and remember to put 5 skill points in Tumble, that way your Monk levels will add a total AC bonus of +1+4+wis bonus (should have wis 14 to have +2). I suggest the following stats: everything at 14 (before racial modifiers) except cha which you leave untouched at it's lowest level. Now for skills don't forget to pump Spellcraft for the Epic spells (and the save bonus) and I also suggest you pump the hide/move silently. The rest you can assign as you like.

 

Meatdog,

Never did I imply that PM would make for a good spellcasting build (?). The whole point of my post was merely to point out that prestige class levels do not help spellcaster levels for the various combos that people seem to think are popular: Wizard/PM, Sorc/RDD, Druid/Shifter.

It's great that you tested this yourself, but this is something that was covered long ago (actually, when HoTU first came out) on the BioBoards, with the developers clearing up any misunderstanding. In addition, the most comprehensive test would involve making a test module and scripting something to use GetCasterLevel() which is the function all stock spells rely on, anyways.

 

Well, for more casual testing, I thought that seeing that Magic Missile didn't get any extra missiles even after 20 levels of RDD was proof enough without going to the depths you are describing

You probably meant : Never did I imply that PM wouldn't make for a good spellcasting build.

Well, one question for you since you seem to be so active on the BioBoards. Is the fact the Sorc doesn't get more spells in his list by taking PM levels some kind of bug or was it on purpose? Since this almost completely removes Sorc and Bard as possible base classes for this marvelous prestige class.

And no, before someone replies, you can't bypass it by alternating PM and Sorc levels, the spells you know are solely based on the Sorc levels.

@Gothmog
Don't worry if this thread seems to stray, one of my following posts will be another build, the moment I think of one

 

OK Hacken Slash, I've read your work on the Fighter - Bard - RDD, and I have a couple of issues with it.

#1. 8 ranks of UMD does not allow you to cast from scrolls up level 8. The roll to allow you to cast from a scroll is 25+spell level. In order to cast a level 8 spell from a scroll 95% of the time, you have to have a 32 in UMD. Note that a roll of 1 always fails! You cannot Take 20 on this roll, at least in combat (not sure about outside combat). That level also won't let you use some of the more fun restricted magic items.

#2. You could take a few more levels of bard and not give up any BAB. You would lose 2 fighter bonus feats, but gain spellcasting, better bardsong, more skill points, and further access to the class skills tumble, UMD, and spellcraft.

My take on the Human Bard - Fighter - RDD is more like this:
Beginning stats: 15 / 14 / 14 / 12 / 8 / 14
L1 - Bard (1)
Skills (24): Perform 4(4), Lore 4(4), Tumble 4(4), UMD 4(4), Spellcraft 4(4), Listen 4(4)
Feats: Dodge, Mobility
BAB: 0

L2 - Fighter (1) - Bard 1 / Fighter 1
Skills (4): Discipline 3(3), Lore 1(5)
Feats: Weapon Focus(your choice)
BAB: 1

L3 - Fighter (2) - Bard 1 / Fighter 2
Skills (4): Discipline 3(6), Lore 1(6)
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave
BAB: 2

L4 - Fighter (3) - Bard 1 / Fighter 3
Skills (4): Discipline 1(7), Lore 1(7), Save 2
Attribute: +1 STR
BAB: 3

L5 - Fighter (4) - Bard 1 / Fighter 4
Skills (2+4): Discipline 1(8), Lore 1(8), Save 4
Feats: Weapon Specialization
BAB: 4

L6 - RDD (1) - Bard 1 / Fighter 4 / RDD 1
Skills (4+4): Spellcraft 5(9), Concentration 1(1), Save 2
Feats: Toughness
BAB: 4

L7 through L15 - More RDD levels: Take 1 rank of Spellcraft and Concentration each level. Feats: Spring Attack, Impr. Crit., and Expertise. Add STR at L8 & L12.

New stats: 26 / 14 / 16 / 14 / 8 / 16
Skills: Perform 4, Lore 8, Discipline 8, Tumble 4, UMD 4, Listen 4, Spellcraft 18, Concentration 10.
BAB: 11/6/1

L16 - Bard (2) - Bard 2 / Fighter 4 / RDD 10
Skills (22+7): Tumble 11(15), UMD 12(16), Listen 6(10)
Attribute: +1 STR
BAB: 12/7/2

L17 - Fighter (5) - Bard 2 / Fighter 5 / RDD 10
Skills (5): Save 5
BAB: 13/8/3

L18 - Bard (3) - Bard 3 / Fighter 5 / RDD 10
Skills (5+7): Perform 4(8), Tumble 5(20), Spellcraft 2(20), Concentration 1(11)
Feats: Lingering Song
BAB: 14/9/4

L19 - Fighter (6) - Bard 3 / Fighter 6 / RDD 10
Skills (5): Save 5
Feats: Whirlwind
BAB: 15/10/5

L20 - Bard (4) - Bard 4 / Fighter 6 / RDD 10
Skills (5+7): Perform 4(12), UMD 4(20), Concentration 4(15)
Attribute: +1 STR
BAB: 16/11/6/1

New stats: 28 / 14 / 16 / 14 / 8 / 16
Skills: Perform 12, Lore 8, Discipline 8, Tumble 20, UMD 20, Listen 10, Spellcraft 20, Concentration 15.

Epic Level Notes: Take fighter levels 7 & 8 first thing to gain Epic Weapon Focus and Epic Weapon Specialization, then take all bard levels. Adding 2 more points to CHA will net you an extra level 4 spell/day, otherwise keep increasing your STR.

Anyway, that's what I've been considering for a very good melee character that can get by on a lot of fronts. Enjoy!

 

Meatdog,

It was done on purpose. Don't ask me why: I'm just a NWN fan (like you) not a BioBum!


Edit: BTW, you're right in saying that taking PM levels is a bit pointless for pure Wizards. My Wizard in HoTU took some PM levels "just to see what it was like" - bad idea. Those 3 levels did not get me any useful benefits superior to putting them into Wizard class, and probably robbed me of an epic spell that might have helped in the final battle with Evil-Demon-Guy...

Edit #2: BigStick, your build sounds nice, I may give it a try. One thing though. That new rule about UMD... it only applies to modules created after HoTU, which specifically have it enabled. HoTU does - but the previous OCs don't, and most (all?) user-made modules don't. It certainly is worth keeping in mind, at least in case you plan on taking your char through the HoTU campaign.

 

That would explain why I never experieinced any significant difficulty with using spell scrolls, as most of my experimentation with them was not in HotU.

@Bigstick I actually tried a build like that first, but didn't really consider it a pure melee build, but more of a jack of all trades. I found that even with 4 levels of Bard, the spellcasting and progression was rather weak, spell failure was a consistent reality due to armor and shields, the dexterity bonus wasn't enough to get out of the heavy armor, I could never really tumble effectively, the guy seemed a little weak on hitpoits for a melee type, the low discipline is a problem during combat and I could ususally do more damage with a round of hitting than with a round of singing

But it definitely looks like it could be a very fun character to play, with lots of different avenues open.

 

Hmm. I thought that I had read that the new rule was set for any game when played at the higher difficulty settings. I'll have to do some checking, I guess. I haven't tried it out since playing the HotU OC, where I know I saw it happen my second time through.

@Hacken Slash - The multiuse capability was one of the goals of this build. The levels of bard give enough extra skill points that taken when they are give some decent tumbling skill to add to the AC. The spell casting is almost exclusively for use outside of combat; buffs, healing, etc. My bard characters always have their armor on a hot key for ease in swapping it out to cast and then back in. The character is planned to end up with 22 levels of bard at level 40, so some of the choices made early on are directed at that. It's also my concept of a sword-singer character

[ May 10, 2004, 15:36: Message edited by: BigStick ]

 

regarding "by the book" UMD checks: a local variable has to be set on the module. i believe it points to a file where you indicate, by means of scripting, how to handle UMD usage. in a sample mod i made, I changed the DC to 15+spell level, since 25+spell level was too hard for my target audience (low level characters) to use even the most basic light scroll. even 15+ is a bit high, but doable...

since the process for incorporating this into a mod is a bit "hardcore", i'd say its a non-issue for characters who aren't going to be used in the HoTU campaign.