1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

Dangerous Business Practices

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by AMaster, Jan 10, 2003.

  1. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    All about the criminally negligent business practices of McWane Inc-a group of pipe foundries.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/workplace/mcwane/
    .
    http://cbc.ca/fifth/pipes/mcwane.html

    here's some of the more horrifying excerpts from the stories

    there have also been 9 deaths since 1997 in McWane plants
    Now, OSHA has known about this for years, yet no really significant penalties have been incured (with the exception of a million dollar fine in one of the fatality cases-the fines in the other cases ranged from $150k-$300k. Seems like fitting compensation for death, doesn't it? ) This is because the maximum penalty for a safety violation is $7,000. It is cheaper for McWane to pay the fine than upgrade the safety of their plants.

    With that in mind, does the law need to be reworked to allow OSHA to impose harsh penalties for safety violations? Thoughts please.

    [ January 10, 2003, 07:10: Message edited by: AMaster ]
     
  2. Elios Gems: 17/31
    Latest gem: Star Diopside


    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2002
    Messages:
    942
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Heck yeah! I worked for a company (name withheld) that had some OSHA violations. Granted, it was a small business and the violations were nothing like what you said. But our safety was compromised I believe. We conducted programs for school kids. Our office was out of the owners home. Some of the demonstrations we did involved extremely flamable materials. There were stored in a pressboard cabinet. The owner never secured the proper permits for us to transport the chemicals from the office to the site were we were doing the programs. To top it all off, the cabinet was right next to a microwave and there was no fire extenguishers, fire alarms were not close by and there was no evacuation plan. When we questioned the owner she told us to keep quiet and not ask questions.
    All it would have taken was one spark and poof. We called OSHA, but they told us there wasn't much that could be done. We were told OSHA was limited in penalties that could be applied and in our case the fines woudl be small, the owner would pay the fine and go on with out changing anything.
    I know of friends who work in similar situations. Not much can be done.
    What I am curious about is whether the workers at the McWane Inc were union or not. That may have helped them. Not all unions are the best, but were my wife works at the San Diego Wild Animal Park, they are Teamsters. Every single OSHA regulation is followed to a T.
     
  3. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    I don't know about all the plants, but the Tyler plant in Texas was union. Thing is, after the plant was bought out by McWane, they were having to hire 900 or so new people in one year-and there were only 1100 workers to begin with. See where are the union guys went? That, and the union had some sort of contract with the plant-hazy on details but it prevented any effective reaction
     
  4. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2000
    Messages:
    10,140
    Media:
    63
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    Hmm, in germany the business authority would have the competence to close the factory - as for a deadly factory as you described that would likely happen. However, for more normal cases, as they are politically subordinate .... local tax income and jobs in general are always a good argument these days. So there would probably be a compromise of some kind .... :almostmad:

    This one field where the EU has had a very positive influence: Their guidelines have imroved enviromental and workspace protection to a good point :)
     
  5. Rallymama Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2002
    Messages:
    4,329
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    11
    Having been on both sides of regulated industry (I worked for the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission, then in a nuclear utility; later I was an environmental health and safety officer at a lab), let me point out that what the media reports as a "violation" may be something as small as not collecting an air sample on time. Now, I'm not trying to make excuses for McWane since I know NOTHING about this case other that what was said here. Also, there's no way to soft-pedal deaths or serious injuries.

    I'm not sure where the number of $7,000 as a maximum fine is coming from. I know I've seen some significantly larger penalties, but it's been quite a while and my references are stale.

    There's a lot more reform that would need to happen than just at OSHA (or EPA, for that matter). Let's say that the penalties were made significant and that the agency had a reasonable chance of enforcement. The first time they tried to go after a company with a Big Stick, chances are good the company would simply declare bankruptcy and shut its doors instead of paying the fine and fixing the problems.

    People go into business to make money for themselves. Any jobs they create or shareholder benefits they pay are side effects.

    Remember that the Bush administration's close ties to the business community make this scenario nothing more than idle speculation. :nolike:
     
  6. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2001
    Messages:
    8,731
    Media:
    88
    Likes Received:
    379
    Gender:
    Male
    I personally feel that the people who run that plant and make policy should be criminally prosecuted -- screw the OSHA fines. It appears to be reckless endangerment as for the people who didn't die and at least negligent homicide for the death. Worker's comp will throw a monkey wrench in the various individuals' rights to sue the company for this crap, so that is what more regulation gets you. There are plenty of existing laws for this behavior. Let's not load up with additional redundant laws, just use the ones we have.
     
  7. Rallymama Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2002
    Messages:
    4,329
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    11
    @dmc What's your area of law practice? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that OSHA has standing to pursue criminal charges. Their records could be used as evidence if the victims' families wanted to go that route, however.

    The weapons that OSHA does hold are the multiplier that gets applied to any fine when the violation is found to have been caused by willful conduct and the DAILY penatly that can accrue when the deadline for making corrections has passed.
     
  8. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2001
    Messages:
    8,731
    Media:
    88
    Likes Received:
    379
    Gender:
    Male
    @Rallymama - I'm a business litigator. I did not mean that OSHA should prosecute. They can, however, recommend such to the appropriate DA and/or Federal prosecutor. I just hate to see the reaction to any bad situation being "we need more laws." Look at that creep in Georgia with the funeral home/crematorium. What he did (improperly disposing of the bodies) broke many existing laws, for which he was prosecuted. Nonetheless, there was a great hue and cry to enact even more laws that would have been redundant. We've got enough laws already.
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.