Dragon Age 2 - The decline of the Classic RPG at Hooked Gamers

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Ibortolis from the Bioware forums made this thread about a 3 page editorial at Hooked Gamers entitled The decline of the Classic RPG. Here are some highlights in the editorial:

Being more sensible than to simply outright dismiss Dragon Age 2 all together, we waited until we actually had a chance to play it for ourselves before making any rash decisions. That time has now come with the release of the playable demo. But were our instincts correct? Unfortunately, the majority of our team say yes, Dragon Age 2 is too clear a departure from the formula we have been in love with since playing Baldur's Gate back in 1998.​

Another highlight:

When you get into the game you will notice that player conversations have become much less significant as well. As far as the dialogue scenes are concerned, this is not role playing; this is interactive playing. The dialogue is so simple that it could be replaced by a choice that you make at the beginning of the game: "Do you want to be a compassionate, humorous, or obnoxious character?" After that choice, you would only have to watch the dialogue scenes play through with no player-input at all.​

And yet another one:

What we see in Dragon Age 2 is a distinct loss of the necessity to plan attacks, you really can play it as an action-RPG. The demo made this immediately evident when we tried to adopt the pause-play style - it was just not practical. The reason for this is because combat is paced much faster and the only really viable way to play the game is to button mash.​

And the final point:

More and more we see games being transformed to cater for only one type of player and quite frankly, many of them are starting to become unidentifiable from each other. Publishers want you to play the game as quickly as possible so you can move on and buy their next title. Ultimately though, this way of doing business will hurt the industry as a whole. A storm is brewing and it's one that publishers are calling on themselves.​

Do you agree with this?

 

I can't comment until I've played it for myself. I can say that some of the gameplay videos I've seen with Mike Laidlaw demonstrated pause and play in a seemingly viable light. At this point I've heard about every which description on how this plays out. I need to get my hands on it for myself, as I honestly don't know what to think.

I suppose that the icons that tell you the tone of your response are a far cry from the days of reading paragraphs of dialogue. It sounds pretty similar to Mass Effect 2. I actually enjoyed the more cinematic effect that this created, so I think I'll be more than able to roll with this in DA2.

 

The auto-attack feature is messed up as well. You have to manuall select auto attack each time you target a new enemy, or settle for button mashing.

 

I've heard tell that the final game release fixes this. I hope it's true.

Should know soon....

 

Exactly my thoughts.. and i´m highly doubtful that the full game will make it better

 

What we have to remember is that a game today needs to be as simple as possible, it may have an 18 rating, but it still has to sell to kids

 

That's actually really sad

 

Since I have now played the demo, I have a much more informed opinion and will respond to what's been presented here:

Yes, DA2 isn't Baldur's Gate, but then again, nothing seems to resonate with diehard Baldur's Gate fans (of which I'm a card carrying member) like Baldur's Gate. And further, just about every CRPG since has been a pretty huge departure from that game's formula... so this isn't exactly saying anything.

Right. This is essentially the just the Mass Effect approach. It promotes a more cinematic gaming experience, and I guess that if you just don't like it, you just don't like it. I think a more productive approach than crying "that's now how they did it in Baldur's Gate" is to simply embrace this style for what it is. I mean, in a way, it's sort of short-sided not to acknowledge the revolution in game presentation this represents. Instead of reading large blocks of text silently, we now have 100% fully voiced and acted dialogues throughout the game. I enjoyed the blocks of text for what they were, but on another level they seem fairly archaic compared to what we get in DA2.

To this I can only say WTFingFingF????? Lies? Stupidity? An evil conspiracy to maliciously berate the game.

I just finished the demo and READ MY LIPS folks -- There was no button mashing! And furthermore, the pause and play style isn't practical? I used it through the entire demo, and found it to be overwhelmingly practical.

I won't deny that much has been done to make this a more mainstream title with large appeal to console players. I was always okay with that in theory (I want Bioware to be successful and continue making great RPGs) as long as the game still appealed to my rather delicate CRPG sensibilities. Based on the demo, I don't think Bioware went too far. It still feels like Dragon Age to me. Combat is fun (and can certainly be tactical). The story, so far, is intriguing. The visuals are immersive and well done.

It's not BG, or IWD, or PS:T, or any variety of other CRPGs you might want to mention. It's its own thing, and I think you have to try to enjoy it for what it is. I, for one, see a whole HELL of a lot that's great in this game. I'm am dying to receive my full copy in the mail tomorrow!

I think a lot of people are getting so worked up trying to list everything that isn't in the game, that they completely overlook what is. A real shame, that.

In a word - NO!

 

I have to disagree with the above post, this is a big departure from classic crpg and is closer to diablo.

I have played the demo and if you want to kill things you just take the role of the highest dmg dealer and button mash, no strategy needed. In the demo the chick with the sword and board held the attention of the mobs with no help needed from me, all I did with a sorc was hit fireball and auto till fireball is off cooldown rinse and repeat.

Classic rpgs following a dnd formula had much more actual strategy needed imo, buffs debuffs crowdcontrol ect.

To the OP I wholeheartedly agree classic rpgs are dead we are now in the age of mindless console gaming =(

 

To each his own, of course. Plenty of people aren't going to enjoy DAII, if you're one of them, then that's just fine.

Since you're new to these boards, a bit of background about me as a gamer. a) I don't play on consoles at all. All of my gaming is done on the PC. b) I'm a rather hardcore fanatic of the Infinity Engine games (e.g. Baldur's Gate 1/2, Planescape Torment, IWD/IWD2, etc) and tend to play them with the best tactics mods I can find. I think this qualifies me as something of an old-school CRPG lover.

YET -- I'm able to derive enjoyment from this game whereas it appears you are not. I'm not sure why there is something here for me, but not for you, but I'll just say I'd rather be me than you in this case. I'm going to have many, many hours of enjoyment with this game.

The game doesn't seem mindless to me at all. Sure many battles are easy, but so are most of the battles in vanilla Baldur's Gate. Did you play the second battle against the Ogre in the demo (the one where you're like level 3... not the opener where you are super high level). Personally, I was only able to get through this battle by using tactics. In addition to the Ogre I was getting swarmed by Hurlocks, and had next to no healing options. Keeping my team of 3 low level guys alive through that battle was a genuine challenge. Way more challenging than most battles in Baldur's Gate are.

Really, you were mashing buttons, as in rapid clicking in order to win the fights? I sure as hell wasn't. Maybe you're just playing the game wrong. I mean, if you prefer not to mash buttons, and it isn't necessary to do so (as I'm living proof of) maybe try to play without mashing buttons!

At any rate, DA2 feels a lot like DA:O to me. The vibe, the music, the lore of course all help with that, not to mention the story starting during the evacuation of Lothering. Yeah, combat is faster, but at the end of the day it plays out about the same, at least the way I'm playing it does (you know, the non-button mashing way). DA:O is really the best comparison game. If you didn't like that game, you probably need not apply to Dragon Age 2.

 

First of all no where did I say the game cant be enjoyable my whole post was that this game should not be labeled a rpg. This is an action console type title.

Playing wrong? If you win the battle there is no wrong. If you want to pause continously to micro manage by all means enjoy your playstyle but that is not needed in the least.

The game may be slightly different than the demo but as we are only talking about the demo that is what I am refering to. Button mash is all that is needed to beat the hack/slash console battles.

Also to note I have not said I hate this game or will not play it, I simply agree with the OP that this is not a rpg. I can enjoy diablo clones the same as anyone else and go back to my iwd and bg games for a true rpg experience.

RIP crpg, welcome console mindless button mash.

Of course my opinion and you are welcome to yours.

 

How dare games actually evolve! They should just remake BG2 and PS:T over and over!

Or, to put it a less sarcastic way, gaming has moved forward. At the end of the day, you can't ask the company to make something that the majority of gamers wont like. They're companies, they HAVE to turn a profit.

Just get over the fact that Dragon Age isn't BG and deal with it. It's a good game, unfortunately some people seem to be a little too stuck in the past to see it.

Edit: And for the record, im a huge fan of Baldur's Gate. I've burned more hours of my life on that than probably any other single game in existence.

 

I appreciate what you're saying, but is this really the reason for turning DA into a medieval ME? Did ME really sell that much better than DA?

 

As much as I dislike ME, it's their game at the end of the day. If they think the greatest potential for earnings is in a medieval ME, then so be it.

Also, it's worth remembering that for every person who thinks the mass effect of Mass Effect is a bad thing, there's someone who thinks it's a good thing.

 

Why shouldn't it be labeled an RPG? What is a roleplaying game anyway? I believe it's a game where you play a role. Isn't a game where you play the role of some guy or gal named Hawke, by definition, going to be a roleplaying game?

I realize that many folks have a more defined definition of a what a roleplaying game is, but I thought I'd point out that in the purest sense of the term, it meets the criteria.

Furthermore, speaking to that more evolved definition, in DA2 you absolutely do have many of the traditional RPG components such as different character classes, character stats, character levels, quests, equipment, a world to explore, choices, a story to experience and goals to accomplish. You have combat, you have magic, you have swords and shields, and oh my god... it seems you have a roleplaying game!!!!

It may not be a roleplaying game by your ideal definition, and several others, but make no mistake, it is, in fact, a roleplaying game. Okay, so you have the option to button mash apparently. It's not a requirement so if you choose to do it, well....

But if you're going to insist otherwise (and I won't try to stop you) I think you also need to declassify Dragon Age Origins as no longer being an RPG either. These games are so similar that whatever they are, they are in the same category -- which again, is actually a roleplaying game, whether we choose to call it that or not.

I was mostly just busting your chops with that comment. You don't have to button mash, and since you claim that you don't like to do so, I was simply ribbing you for choosing to do that which you claim not to like.

You don't technically have to pause and play in Baldur's Gate either, but if you enjoy that style of play, and it's available... then why deny yourself?? That's my rationale, at any rate.

If you say so friend. I find this statement rather laughable, but I can't stop you from lamenting if that's what you wish to do.

You never answered me about the second ogre + swarm of hurlock fight. Really, that fight was mindless for you? I found it challenging, and I played it with several classes. The two handed sword Hawke had the easiest time with it. Sword and board Hawke, rogue Hawke and mage Hawke all gave me a run for my money.

Yep, agreed.