fighter thief : multi or dual in evil party

Remove all ads!

it's been 4 years since the last time i play SOA. i'd like to have an evil party :
1) Korgan
2) Viconia
3) Edwin
4) Sarevok (TOB)

my PC will be fighter thief but i still can't decide whether to dual or multi.
i want my PC to be able to backstab & still can fight if the enemies can't be backstabbed. and yes, i want to wear armor.

I narrow down the options to :
1) multiclass Fighter/Thief
2) dual class Fighter (??) / Thief (??)
3) dual class Kensai (??) / Thief (??)

which one is best and why? what weapon proficiency should i take?

thanks guys

 

I'm guessing a lot of people are going to tell you to use Kensai, dualled to thief at around level 11 or 13 It has been a hot topic on here for quite some time.

Personally, I go with just a plain multiclass F/T. It works great! Considering you've only got a 4 person party (SOA) xp will be relatively easy to come by and so you should be able to level up a little quicker. Of course you probably wont be able to do as much damage as a Kensai, but you'll be able to hold your own for a lot longer.

Guess it really depends on the type of character you're looking to play.

 

Fighter duals should always be at level 9 (for maximum d10 hit points) or level 13 (for maximum extra attacks from levels). In this case, I'd say you should go with a multi-class, because you're not going to want to wait for those thief skills.

Now, looking at your party, I'd say Sarevok will be handling the two-handed stuff (swords or halberds), and Korgan will be handling axes, possibly dualling with Crom Faeyr. If he doesn't use Crom Faeyr, it should go to Viccy, who'll be using blunt weapons no matter what. That leaves your F/T with swords, daggers, etc. Celestial Fury is definitely your friend here, and I'd go with katanas first. You'll likely also want to dual-wield here too, so go with Scimitars for Belm and eventually the Scarlet Ninja-To when you get UAI. Finally, I'd grab a bow proficiency for until you get your stealth skills adequate for safely positioning before a battle for a backstab; probably short bow for Tuigan.

 

Neither!

The best choice is to choose a "berserker" (not a kensai) and to proceed upto level 9, then dual it to a thief.

The enrage ability is WAY more helpful than the bonuses a kensai has. Furthermore, with a berseker-thief, you still can wear leather armor, gauntlets and helmet (all of which are forbidden for a kensai).

As a general point, Dual-class warrior-thief is a better choice than multi-class fighter thief for various reasons: 1) you role D10 for your hit points 2) With a constitution above 16, you can have good bonuses on your hit points 3) You can have more than two proficiency stars on your weapons 4) you can reach high levels as a thief (the XP you gain during the game will not be divided between two classes) 5) you can choose to be berserker rather than plane fighter.

As for weapon proficiencies, you can have 7 stars as a 9th level berserker and before dualling to thief. I would suggest that you put 3 stars on two weapon skills and 4 stars on "short sword" (the important point is not to divide the stars beteen various weapons at this stage). Later when you dual to thief, you can put stars on other weapons (but do not waste the stars on short sword, because you will re-gain your 4 stars when you reach level 10, this is why I said not to divide your stars between different weapons, because if you already have say two stars on dagger or katana, the stars you put on them as a thief will be wasted and you will only re-gain your proficiency stars you had before dual classing. Also do not waste your stars on ranged weapons as a thief, because when you regain your berserker abilities you won't really need to use ranged weapons so much).

Hope that this helped.

[ July 26, 2006, 10:28: Message edited by: Sikret ]

 

Here is a little-known trick that can be used with Sikret's Berserker -> Thief strategy. After dualling to thief, if you can avoid levelling up until after you've accumulated the x.p. to surpass your berserker levels then you can put any proficiencies earned into anything allowed to the berserker. You are only limited to the thief proficiencies in the two slots that you have to commit to upon dualling. This means that a more optimal way of distributing your weapon stars might be, for example, 5 stars in "short sword" and 2 in "hammer", then dual and take 1 in dual-wield and 1 in "short bow", then upon getting you berserker abilities back take 2 more stars in dual-wield.

 

Since you have ToB installed I recommend going multi because you get far more HLAs that way.

Best choice for dualclassing is taking a kensai to level 13 (or 15 or 18).
You gain kensai bonusses but you won't benefit from both classes for the longest part of the game. You'll have to keep another thief for a very long time if you want someone to handle locks and traps properly.

A nice roleplaying choice would be a halfling assassin. He won't get more than 1 attack/round but he'll be pure class like the other party members and can do nasty backstabs.

 

I'd go with the multi also. My elf F/T dual-wielded katanas, long swords and axes. Max out OL and FT to start, then dump your points into stealth since you want to backstab.

 

That's the bottom line right there. I'm not saying kensai/thieves or berserker/thieves are not doable characters, but the fact remains you cannot overstate the value of having two sets of HLAs to chose from. Fighter/thief multi-classes can take the assassinate HLA multiple times, which is probably the most powerful HLA in the game when considering any creature of approximate humanoid size.

As Fel points out, you'll probably be using some combination of Celestial Fury and Belm/Scarlet Ninja-To. By ToB, you're attacks per round will be 7/2. So when you use assassinate, you'll get up to four swings (all of which will likely hit) that will do 5X damage.

There's some other reasons to take a multi over a dual as well. Namely, you don't need 30+ levels as a thief. Once your thief has about 15 levels, he has pretty much all the skills he will ever need. Not only that, but fighters continue to improve steadily all the way up to level 20. So by ToB, you'll have a much better fighter than if you dualled at level 9 or 13, plus you'll still have a thief that can do everything your dual classed thief would be able to do at that point.

 

I would choose a Wizard Slayer 13/Thief X dual class (I don't like multiclass that much and I can do with only one set of HLAs).

With UAI this character won't suffer from any disadvantage whatsoever and if you have never played a Wizard Slayer you're in for a real treat (dual wielding with as many extra attacks as possible).

Kensais may be great (if you can get over the lack of armour until you get UAI), Berserkers may have great immunities, but Wizard Slayers are the bane of spellcasters and magic wielding creatures (dragons come to mind), give them a try you won't be disappointed.

 

Yes, the advantage of a multi-class f/t over a dual-class Berserker-thief is that the mulit-class character will choose HLAs from two pools. The advantages of the dual-class character over the multi-class one, on the other hand, are those I mentioned in my post. Now, it is upto the player to choose between them according to what he likes and prefers. He may also try both in two different game-throughs.

 

Baldurdash fixes that exploit.

 

Nice quote Kuemper.

I think Sikret has made a good point:

Actually even without the True Grand Mastery MOD (granting extra attacks) you get some hefty advantages from +++++ IIRC from another thread it's +4 bonus to damage (anybody can confirm that?) and a bonus to Weapon Speed.
And what's more interesting is that you get that right from the start, not only at the end of the game.

IMO HLAs are the icing, not the cake...

 

With +++++ you get +1 thac0 and +2 damage compared to ++. With 9-10 attacks/round a little bonus speed factor doesn't matter.
You'll loose a lot of flexibility since you can't get +++++ in many weapons.

The kensai 13/thief39 gets 16 HLAs, the multiclass gets 23. Just imagine what 7 extra spike traps could do ...
The multiclass' saving throw are about +2 superior, and if you choose a dwarf or halfling you get an additional +5 in the important saving throws.

The multiclass will be strong all the time, the dualclass will either miss thieving or fighting skills more than half of game. He'll need additional 1,330,000 XP to get the first HLA compared to the multiclass.
70 percent of the game will be over when the dualclass gets the important UAI.

 

Or imagine what fighter HLAs can do - a dual class gets 0 fighter HLAs.

 

You don't need flexibility when you plan what weapons you want to use even before creating a character.

+2 damage from the very start of the game is very good IMO.

With ToB there is a limit to the maximum number of traps you can use at the same time so "7 extra spike traps"? GWW would be a better option.

The inactive class thing is a problem but the counterpart is the advantage of using a kit which grants advantages and disadvantages from the very start of the game (a Wizard Slayer's special attack is not available to a MC, UAI is good but the kit can be effective without it).
A DC may require time and patience, but once both classes are active it's fine. With a MC you need to be patient as well since it takes ages to level up... especially in a party made up of single class characters.

HLAs tip the scale in favour of the MC I don't contest that but as kmonster pointed out it's only at the end of the game that they become available.

IMO Kits are a lot of fun to play. I'd rather have some special abilities and a title (Berserker, Kensai, Wizard Slayer) making my character somewhat different from others Fighters rather than getting loads of HLAs, but that's just me.

 

And a Berserker->Thief would be almost necessary...if he didn't already have a berserker in the group. Korgan will be the attention-getter, handling all those things that only a berserker can handle, while the PC will slaughter alongside him.

The general argument for a Kensai->Thief (or Wizard Slayer->Thief) is UAI, taking away all the disadvantages while leaving the advantages. And if you use them properly as a flanker, it wouldn't matter that much in the time before you get UAI.

And I still think my statement that you're going to need a thief before dualling time is the deciding factor. Playing without a thief...

 

Quite true! If one wants to postpone dualling to level 13, he will need another thief in the party for that period of time; but if one chooses to dual at level 9, it won't be a problem, because one can reach level 9 very quickly and even without a thief in the party.

One of the main drawbacks of multi-class characters (as mentioned before by others and myself and as you know) is that it takes too much time for the character to level up. With a party of 6 members, a multi-class character will still be (at best) about level 12 or 13 in each of his classes when the party is out of underdark in chapter 6 (assuming that he has done all and every quests in previous chapters) though the thieving level may be a bit higher. This disadvantage, is very serious for an f/m but perhaps less serious for an f/t, but even an f/t doesn't have access to HLAs yet at such levels. In a heavily modded game, however, more XP are floating in the air and a multi-class character will have better chances to proceed, of course.

In general, I think that deciding about this issue (i.e. dual or multi?) is perhaps a matter of playing style and taste. One can play and enjoy the game in either way. For my playing style, dualling is more convenient and suitable.

 

I'd suggest a Half-Elf FMT.

Half-Elf because I like a higher CON, and a 18 vs. 19 DEX of a full Elf isn't important. You'll also be able to romance Viconia, if you want.

I suggest the FMT over the FT because Edwin will appreciate the backup Mage, and your party will gain more XP because of it (you can memorize twice as many spells!). The fact that you're only using Evil NPCs means your party will be smaller, so don't worry about advancing a bit slower.

 

Well, he can always use Yoshimo for a little while in the beginning until he hits the point where he will dual class - even though Yoshi isn't evil.

I think that people over-estimate this effect. For starters, until you hit level 10, multi-classed characters only lag behind their single classed counterparts by one level. Yes, their XPs are split between the two classes, but because you usually need to double your experience points to hit the next level of experience for levels 1-9, it means when single classed character are level 10, your multi-class will be level 9 in each class. After that it gets harder, as your leveling actually does proceed half as fast. However, by the time your thief is level 10 or so, he's really pretty functional, and I like the fact that he continues to improve as a fighter as well. And I really like getting two sets of HLAs later on.

Like I said before, because they are only one level behind through level 10, it's not like your single classed characters are going to have twice as many levels of experience as the multi class. Your single classed characters will only be 2-3 levels ahead of your multi-class at this point - probably around level 16. Oh, and based on his proposed party, it looks like he's going to have a 5 person party, so the experience should be a little higher as it's being divided over fewer members.

I'm not saying you can't go with a dual-class. I'd simply like to point out that from a versatility and power perspective, my multi-classed fighter-thief was probably the most efficient class I've ever played.

 

I would download a patch to remove all exp caps and go with multiclass. (I found that the exp cap limits the amount of the combined amount of exp a character can have to 8000000 so a dual class thief/warrior would normally only be able to gain 4000000 exp in each class)