Graner guilty in Iraq prisoner abuse case

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@ Morgoroth

How do you respond to men willing to blow themselves up to destroy the lives of many?

I'm sorry if my revealing personal pain gives you a sense of power over me and my viewpoint...which may in fact prevent you from understanding that viewpoint...but please provide a logical method of combating men like that...

If you can come up with a non-violent method that works...buddy, you have a Nobel Peace Prize coming your way...


Edit...

I thought of a good way of framing my arguement. Perhaps it's most appropriate for a philosophy class, but still...

How much pain would you be willing to endure to save the life of a fellow human being? Make it a complete stranger...in fact, make it about 15 complete strangers. How much pain would you be willing to endure to save their lives?

Since I am going to assume you are a noble creature, it is probably quite a lot. Is it not acceptable to inflict that same amount on those who are in fact trying to kill 15 complete strangers in order to prevent their deaths? Is it not acceptable to inflict a much lesser amount (sleep deprivation, etc.) on those who are in fact trying to kill 15 complete strangers in order to prevent their deaths? Should they not be held to the same measure of nobility? Has not a person whom is guilty of trying to murder 15 people reneged on their right to self-determination?


I must say, before this line of thinking is taken to the extreme (as Chev loves to do), please bear in mind moderation and the ability to make distinctions...and please confine the arguement to those people with whom it applies...obviously Babbar the taxi driver is not our man...we are talking about the guy blowing up the front of the mosque...the guy completely covered in high explosives walking into a crowd and blowing it to peices...

I get the feeling no one is going to address what to do with those individuals...since then you might have to get intellectually dirty...

It is much easier to just say US evil/ me good. But YOU don't have to do anything but type away at your comp (not that I am much different...)

Basically I'm saying come up with a better solution or quit complaining so much...

It just seems like the men who are doing nothing all seem to know exactly what the men who are trying to solve the problem should be doing...

Seriously Chev...get the ruler of Egypt to relax martial law (which has been in effect for decades) and allow elections again...

Seriously Ragusa...get the ethnic groups of Iraq to live together without killing one another (as they have done prior to US occupation)...

I'm sorry this has turned quite abrasive (maybe I'm a little ruffled from Morgoroth...probably my own fault for revealing too much), but as an American whom has friends and ex-girlfriends (well, ex-girlfriend) in Iraq, it offends me that people would devote so much energy to pointing out the dirt on the sleeves of the firemen whom are putting out the fires burning next to their own houses!

If your response is that America is spraying gas instead of water...then come up with a better solution! But don't kid yourselves into thinking the fire is not burning...it's their guys...so DO SOMETHING.

[ January 24, 2005, 07:41: Message edited by: Late-Night Thinker ]

 

I thought you couldnt defend torture, that if you believed it was nescessary you sneaked with it and perhaps even felt a bit ashamed of it.

This thread and others on other forums have shown me that torture is seen as perfectly acceptable by many people, and not people from oppressive dictatorships but people who know history and who generally are sensible and rational. This scares me, this scares the **** out of me, if moderate rational people who really think on things consider torture as something that is ok then I dont even want to ponder what the great mass is thinking. To see such naivite in combination with such cynicism is frightening. The naivity of believing that some random insurgent knows stuff that can help save *American* lives (no other matters of course) and the cynicism of being willing to extract the possible information with torture. But hey, what does it matter, all those towelheads flew a plaine into New York so the US is entitled to do whatever it wants to anyone even resembling an arab...

 

If I put my mind to it, I could defend anything, up to and including genocide. In certain circumstances.

That's hardly remarkable. It's merely human. Want proof? See Rwanda, the Congo, Cambodia, Nazi Germany, the Ottoman Empire, and so on.

 

Yes, but it is rare that you see people trying to defend it from a moral point of view. At the same time as defending torture they claim the moral high ground.

The ones you listed either were cruel bastards and proud of it who got rid of people who threathened their power or deemed their victims to be non-humans and thus not deserving any pity or compassion whatsoever, vermin which needed to be exterminated. Humans are capable of any atrocity imaginable but loudly proclaiming oneself to be the super good guys fighting the vilest of evil at the same time you support the use of torture at least sticks in my throath.

 

They do not even have to resemble an Arab - I have read about Sikh taxidrivers in New York being beaten up and even killed as they 'Killed Americans in 9/11'! It reminds me of 'Dragon - The Bruce Lee Story' where a guy wants to fight Jason Scott Lee because of his Asian appearance "You killed my daddy in Korea".

Of course these things are (hopefully) isolated cases but its scary to think that the public will defend these people that cause harm as they are just trying to save American lives.

 

And in what way would I have to endure the pain? By willingly submitting to torture aimed at taking everything out of me and then confronting my any answer with reality?

That would hardly be saving anyone's life.

You would, I would like to think I would, but there are people who wouldn't and they shouldn't be forced. But this is still immaterial, as being subject to torture is substantially different from taking pain on yourself to save someone's life.

Tortured people are making no sacrifice and they are not willing to save any life. If they were willing, they would tell you everything without torture.

And with torture that force is broken. The suffering is rarely just physical and hardly does it leave no permanent scar on someone's personality and character.

From other parts of your post I assume, however, that you're against humiliating forms of torture. This would imply that you're against any kind of sexuality-related torture. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree that life is not a fairy tale and sometimes one has to make tough decisions. Under some circumstances you will definitely convince me that it doesn't take an evil bastard to employ harsh, even cruel methods. However, it's hardly true that all detainees are terrorists. There's quite a lot of people detained on a just-in-case principle and random peasants amongst them. They hardly know anything and testimony forced by torture is unreliable. There women and children there. Most of the people cannot pose any danger to the US, especially women and children. There's no such thing as defence rights and the people are neither set free nor faced with a trial. It's high time the not guilty ones (or ones that would get a fine or a term shorter than their detention time) went home. There's no justification whatsoever for rape or sexual abuse. There's no justification whatsoever for torture for the pleasure of the torturer. It would all have been hidden and would still be hidden from the public eye had it not been for the hooded photos from Graner, England & co. Accidents are downplayed and reduced to irrelevant isolated cases whenever and however often they happen, and there's lots of lying involved. Withholding the photos and other proof is what falsifies history. As a result, Arabs will multiply torture stories up to the point of complete absurd and sheer fantasy, while your average American will believe the war was an all clean holy crusade against evil and only good things were done along the way. He will still believe that some things simply don't happen in the US army or in detention camps. As such, the government won't be especially compelled to address the problem anyhow. And so everything will come back to normal.

I don't like it that way. I strongly believe that something must be done about the recruitment and duty assignment procedures in the US army, as well as promotion criteria. A couple of posts above, I elaborated in more length on the problem, so I won't be repeating myself now.

All the abuse needs to be investigated in order to 1) learn the truth and face it, mete out justice, repair the wrongs and learn the lesson; 2) clear the name of the US administration, army and, most of all, the average soldier before the worldwide public opinion. That's because the last thing a scarcely adult guy thrown on the front and putting his life in danger daily needs is being associated with people like Graner, England, the officers and intelligence agents and civil officers involved.

And yes, it's one of the reasons why the administration and military command's misdeeds get so much on my nerves. There is such a thing as a soldier's honour and it's a lot easier to forget about it when you're on the top than when you're at the bottom. Especially if you aren't even a soldier. It's beyond me how a soldier could do something like what Graner or England and their pals as well as their counterparts in other detention camps did. Such weed must be rooted out to clear the honour of the army and remove the taint and stigma from all the honest and honourable men who are fighting and willing even to die for their most cherished beliefs, for what they belief good and right, and for the freedom of other people whom they don't even know let alone owe anything.

[ January 24, 2005, 17:36: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

Twas Crime that this part timer soldier committed

Note that he was a prison guard in non-soldier job too

and just look at any of his pictures

the 'perfect bull'

and now this bull becomes what he himself once lorded over

the irony is great!

he got less than he deserved

 

@ joacqin

Sorry joacqin, but there are no absolute truths in this world with which we can set our feet and move forward knowing we are going in the right direction. Given certain horrible circumstance, the morally reprehensible become a logical course of morality. In this case, that horrible circumstance is groups of people... organized groups of people...strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up large groups of people just living out their daily lives.

Rather than shirk at the uglyness...come up with a solution...I would be so happy if someone could come up with a better solution than the one employed...because it is ugly and horrible...

One day this kind of stuff will not be necessary...hopefully that day will be very, very soon.

But seriously guys...come up with a solution...because mine admittedly sucks...it's just the only one that stands a chance of success at preventing other suicide bombers from accomplishing their missions.

 

Why not let the bringers of horror duke it out together? For a non-involved part I really see no moral difference between some lunatic strapping bombs to their chest and blowing up a way station and a lunatic who obliterate a city with artillery fire or aerial bombing.

The tools of the other side are always claimed to be morally reprehensible while your own side is using honorable and glorious way of killing.

Even if you see it as that as you do and I do not, Ragusa have given you a better solution to solving your dilemma. Old fashioned detective work and investigations. Much more reliable than torture and you dont have to dirty your hands.

Sadly it is people like you who think like you who makes me wonder if it really matters who wins in Iraq. Seems to turn more and more into a war with no good guys.

 

If things were the other way around would torture be acceptable?

 

If you start to practice that which you condemn...

You become yourself condemned

I am standing by . . .

 

I wonder if he will get his own defense funds just like the extremely lady-like and highly sophisticated Lynnie England?

http://www.englanddefensefund.com/

 

Probably not, it's easier to sell a stupid chick like Lynndie as a poor, victimised Jeanne d'Arc of Abu Ghraib to the right wing. Which is of course nonsense. She has a free will, and she had a free will when she was in Abu Gharib.

Graner is discredited as a perverted sicko (with extramarital affairs with at least two of his female comrades - *evil* by christian right standards) by his 'I love my new job as a torturer' e-mails he sent to his family.

 

I notice that Lynnies website has 'God Bless' at the time. I would have thought that putting on sex shows infront of fellow workers and prisoners would be slightly immoral to right wing?

I also read that Jeremy (forget his surname but he is one of the 'Big 3' of prisoner abusers) got a heroes welcome at his small P.A. town - even from religious leaders!

Maybe that Chrisitian 'comicbook' website that Ragusa provided in the 'homosexual' topic from a while back will do a story on this!

Time to find that link...

 

It's hardly Christian to give a semi-religious hero's welcome to someone with that kind of attitude towards his own family (two extramarital affairs) already, let alone a torturer. Can't say I'm shocked - nothing in this world seems to shock me anymore, but I would be outraged if it weren't so depressing.

I also find it highly disturbing that they are using the American flag on the "englanddefensefund" site. I associate the star spangled banner with something else than torture and adultery. That's a profanation and they should be ordered to remove the flag.

 

I recently read an article in the New York Times which reported insurgents are handing out flyers that state "If you vote, the blood of your family will flood the streets..."

But seriously people...there is no difference between the two sides in this war...

*****

Back to the torture topic...

Has there ever been a war where torture was not employed by both sides? Seriously...ever?

 

Well, if things continue as they are going one starts to wonder.

Yet another reason why war is rarely, if ever the answer to a problem. Do you think the justifications for invading Iraq were good enough to turn average Joes into torturers? That is but one of the countless atrocities which appear in war, and yet humans in the millions cheer on at every chance at a nice good war.

 

For information? Yeah, probably in the Middle Ages between the Christian powers. Nobles couldn't be tortured and non-nobles didn't know a damn, so there was no point. Unless the commander was really stupid. But everyone knows what typically happened when a city was captured (it certainly qualifies as torture for pleasure), so the point is moot. Although no one apart from nobles went into detention, using modern terms, and those were hold for ransom in comfortable conditions or even set free on the promise of paying ransom, rape and pillage in captured cities and sometimes countryside (requisitions were morron common than plain pillage, in fact, although you'd still be wise to hide your women or pretty young boys) was all but uncommon. There might have been a couple of "clean" wars, but I wouldn't still wouldn't vouch for their 100% cleanness. In other periods, I doubt. Not in the ancient period and maybe a couple in the renaissance or later periods. Not like I can come up with anything specific.

It doesn't look like humans are ever going to learn their lesson.

[ January 27, 2005, 00:29: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

Just because torture was standard in the past does it mean that it should still be used?

I am probably boring people with N.Ireland but as soon an IRA suspect (or even if found guilty) is even slightly mistreated the American government always interferes.

 

It's a bit like protesting in the Republic of South Africa about apartheid after legally ending it only in 1964 on their own ground. But don't let us diggress too far...