How can laws regarding rape be improved?

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This thread was inspired by this story in my lovely hometown. here are my thoughts:

First of all, with no physical evidence of an assault or photographs or witnesses, the case boils down to a "he said, she said" situation. Given that an accused is innocent until proven guilty and that the law leans toward freeing a guilty person rather than punishing an innocent one, this guy is likely to walk.

Now obviously, one of these two people is lying. Let's start with the teenage girl:

She is a confessed shoplifter. She cannot play the angel card. In addition, the case was brought forward by a friend who she was venting to. Now a lot of folks don't like it to be pointed out, but teens lie sometimes. Not all teens all the time, but let me tell you something I learned while teaching teens -- any teen can lie, even the girls. Feminists hate this fact being pointed out, but it is nonetheless true. This particular girl's credibility is pretty well shot to heck, and so if she really was assaulted, it is a pity that her own stupidity and greed will likely end up setting a guilty slimeball free.

As for the guard, he may or may not be innocent but what is certain is that he is an idiot. Agreeing to lie for her, cutting deals with her not to tell her father, driving her to the school in his car without anyone else present? Moronic. My Pa always told me to never be in a situation wherein a woman can accuse you of anything. If you always have a witness, you can never be falsely accused. This guard's actions damaged his credibility pretty thoroughly as well. If a judge who believes that women never lie hears this case, his own stupidity could send him to jail, rather than his own guilt.

Does anyone have any ideas on how laws can be revamped to ensure justice? Ideas that don't involve stereotyping either gender but rather acknowledge that all humans are capable of lying and deceit?

 

In a "he said she said" scenario, you can't ensure justice. "Innocent until proven guilty" is about as good as we can do.

I would just like to point out that without her stupidity and greed, she wouldn't have been apprehended, so there wouldn't have been an assault, and there would be no guilty slimeball to set free.

 

As Whoopie says, there is a big difference between "rape" and "rape rape".

Of course I don't think legally there is a difference, but in the eyes of many jurors there is a difference.

 

In this case, there was an element of coercion alleged by the girl. In addition, the girl had no pre-existing relationship with the guard, which makes any tale of "we had sex, your honor, but it was consensual" somewhat difficult to believe.

She is also a minor, though I don't know if 15 years old is the age of consent here in Alberta. Being a decent person, I've not had occasion or desire to get frisky with a 15 year old since I was about 16 myself, so forgive me my ignorance. In any event, any sexual contact between the two of them is sexual interference at the minimum.

I agree with you Splunge, but the allergy some militant feminists have to asking women to take responsibility for their own behaviours and choices makes me careful about pointing out the blindingly obvious. For the record, I am not saying (and I'm sure Splunge isn't either) that the girl's bad choices mean she deserves to be raped. What I am saying is that in an imperfect world, doing illegal or foolish things increases one's chance of becoming a victim. Being careful and law abiding greatly reduces one's risks.

 

I was under the impression that the legal system in Canada was pretty similar to the US. If there is absolutely no evidence he did anything to her - then it wouldn't go to trial. The article does not mention whether or not the other girl is testifying on the plaintiff's behalf. If they were questioned separately by police surrounding the details of what happened and how it happened, and their testimony is exact, then it adds to their credibility. It's easy enough to make up a lie between two people on general terms, but when it comes to details, you can usually tell if they are being truthful.

 

There is no solution to this issue. It is a major problem. Now, I am convinced that most rape allegations are true and that there are many many rapes that are never reported just because the woman in question is sure she won't be believed, she can't prove anything and she doesn't want to meet and talk to people like LKD during interrogations.

I have thought about this a lot and can't really see a solution. The only solution I can see isn't really a solution but a work around. Today in our society rape is seen as the most heinous of crimes applying almost as much stigma to the victim as the perpetrator. You are "destroyed" as a woman if you have been raped, you are not expected to be able to get on with your life. If we could somehow change how we view it, and this is the controversial part which people might be offended by. If we could see a rape for an assault like any other assault. That it isn't an eternal stigma on the victim, that it is "just" I was assaulted/abused and now I want to get on with my life. Right now the topic is so laden with tension, drama and taboo that the mere accusation of it can ruin someone's life and if you are assaulted you immediately have to prove that it wasn't your own fault. If I go out as a man, even if I go to the worst part of town showing off my rolex and carrying a big wad of cash, and get robbed and beaten up people won't question my honesty. They might think I was acting carelessly and even stupidly but they wouldn't think I was to blame. I would also be expected to dust myself off and get on with my life, I had done nothing wrong, I am not "stained" as a person. My counter intuitive way to solve this issue is to "un-dramatize" the crime, make into a crime like any other. Wouldn't solve the "he said/she said" issue really but if there wasn't so much tension around it I don't think there would be as much reason to believe that people would make up accusations and if you are a victim I think it would make it easier for you to get on with your life and not let one creep completely ruin it.

 

FWIW, most law enforcement personnel are well aware that all humans are capable of lying and deceit and make considerable efforts during the course of their investigations to determine if the principals are doing either.

 

The guard admitted to driving the girl to her high school, highly irregular to say the least. Without any evidence, the guard should be fired as he's shown he isn't capable of handling even that small amount of power responsibly and the girl should have to pay back whatever she stole (unless she already has).

Teens all over the world engage in risk taking behaviour, but not many turn into career criminals or sociopaths. I can only think of one instance when my parents were in retail when a shoplifter was over 20, and even then the guy would have barely been 21.

 

Yikes.

Let me first state that I am a feminist. I'm not a crazy feminist, but part of the problem is that people automatically assume that if you say you're a feminist, you're a crazy feminist. I don't believe in the superiority of women as some feminists do, but I do believe in equality, and I do believe we haven't gotten there. In fact, I think a lot of the ways some feminists and the general media have acted have moved us farther from the ideal, as we are alienating men, and creating new inequalities that only make things worse because we can't see their ramifications.

Rape is, I think, one of the worst crimes because it's not about just getting something, it's about power. It's not even usually about sex: it uses sex to gain power. Sex is the instrument, not the end. Abuse/Domestic violence is the other worst crime, for the same reason. That said, I agree with most of what joaquim said. The other thing to consider, which moves beyond this specific situation, is that men are abused and raped, too. There's even more of a stigma for a man in that situation, although it's a different kind of stigma. Because victims often are reluctant to step forward at the right time (i.e. right away BEFORE showering), especially if it's a date rape situation, there usually isn't any physical evidence. That means that it goes back to "He said/she said" and witnesses, if there are any. Again, in a date rape situation, there probably wouldn't be any, since in most date rape scenarios, the victim does want to spend alone time with the future rapist, just not have sex. I don't have an answer for this, as the only answer I've seen is that victims need to report immediately so that there can be physical evidence (semen, vaginal fluid, etc.)

This situation was obviously not a date rape case. After reading both accounts, I see more holes in the guard's story than the girl's, although granted, I only have the one source to look at. The guard says that he let her off the hook for shoplifting because she said she was abused, but he didn't report the abuse to the court, and for some reason, chose to drive her alone to the school (I also wonder at the notion that an abused girl would let a strange man drive her home, but a desperate non-abused girl might). It also says that he was the one who planned to have the second girl take the whole blame for the shoplifting. A lot of this just doesn't make sense.

On the other hand, I could see a desperate girl beg to be let off the hook and ask for a ride without thinking about the consequences. Teens are notorious for not thinking about consequences. It's also pretty common for rape victims to avoid reporting the crime, so the fact that she waited ten days, especially being 15, seems pretty realistic to me. And I'd argue that while shoplifting is a crime, there's a big difference between taking something you want/going on a risk spree (a lot of times, shoplifting is more about the high in taking the risk, not the object itself) and framing an innocent person for a crime like rape. Getting in a car with a strange man also fits a risk-seeking attitude. It also doesn't make sense that if she were deliberately planning to frame him, why would she have waited?

That said, I fully believe in "innocent until proven guilty", which makes rape cases particularly sad, since there usually isn't enough proof to prove someone guilty. I would hope that the jury would follow the evidence, and if it's not enough, they have to go with a not guilty plea.

 

The truth is almost always somewhere in the middle. A quick guess is that the girl offered 'favors' upon being caught as a means to get out of it, and the guy accepted, but it broke down somehow on the trip to the girl's high school "to speak to her summer school teacher about why she was late," (yeah right) and they're both lying.

But then again I don't know. It could be that either or both of them are as pure as the driven snow.

 

Rape, false rape accusations, it all seems to occupy Americans' thoughts a little more than is entirely healthy.
From what I hear, you can't even make a passing compliment to a female co-worker in the States without risking accusations of sexual harassment. That's also taking things a bit too far.
The system as it's set up now seems as effective as it can be, and there are ways to detect lies and falsehoods from both parties involved, but no method is foolproof. I think more mistakes are made by people due to their own personal gender biases than there are because of faulty procedures. New legislation isn't likely to eradicate biases, and it will just further complicate matters, as there will be more loopholes in a more complex procedure. You wouldn't want rape procedures to become as bloated, ineffective and easily exploitable as sexual harassment allegations, would you?

 

Good point. Yes, if the girl offered 'favors' and then changed her mind---that's a very tricky situation. If she resisted/said "no", then it's clearly still rape, but if she didn't, if she sort of squirmed through it or felt like she wasn't allowed to resist/say "no" . . . then it's much less clear. Technically, it would still be rape, but the guy might not know she felt forced, and therefore you can't really punish him. In this case, however, there is still the age factor, so it would probably still be statutory rape. And this is one of the reasons statutory rape exists: younger girls/boys aren't always in a position to understand that they can say "no" in situations like these, especially if the other person is a figure of authority (as the guard clearly was).

 

Then he would just be a slimeball...

 

My bad. Is there a big difference in rape & sexual harassment laws?

All men are slimeballs.

 

The case was thrown out. With no evidence beyond an accusation, they could not punish this guard. No word on if the guard will be fired for his stupidity, dishonesty, and possible negligence. I will state that I (and "people like me", whatever the hell that is supposed to mean) firmly believe that the guy should be fired even if he cannot be convicted of the other things he was accused of doing.