Is Germany more interested in profits than world safety?

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First we have rumors that France and Germany may be opposing the war it Iraq because of alleged enormous ($80 billion+) undisclosed oil contracts with Iraq. No proof of this, but it is a hot topic.

Now we have evidence that Germany is selling nerve gas precursor chemicals to N. Korea.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030218-330306.htm

It is beginning to look like Germany could care less about world safety as long as they can make money. I know that Germany's economy is on the brink of ruin, but if this is true, it is inexcusable!

 

Well, as an American: pots and kettles my friend, pots and kettles.

 

Sorry Laches, I don't get what you are saying.

All I can think you mean relates to a racist colloquialism about a kettle speaking to a pot.

If that is the case, perhaps you should fall back on "people in glass houses"

If this is what you mean, I am not saying that we are better than, or that we have never done the same. It relates to the supposed "higher ground" that Germany and France are claiming on the issue of dealing with rouge nations. Their stance reeks of hypocrisy. At least we admit what we are doing and why we are doing it. But then that is probably because we are too boorish to play politics at their level.

[ February 18, 2003, 15:47: Message edited by: Darkwolf ]

 

Hmm. I read that article and I have to say: I am a little bit startled. If this accusation is true then why hasn't it been an issue here in Germany? (btw: I'm sorry if my english is bad. But, as they say: You can keep all grammatical errors you may find. *g*)
We have an sercurity council which decides about all exports of such wares. This shipment would have been an issue in the media, if it's that serious.

I also know about the questionable reputation of the Washington Times. If similar articles start to appear in other, more reliable papers, let me know.

Greets.

 

Are you saying that the US is doing everything for free ? Out of the kindness of their hearts ? You better wake up and smell the coffee dude, NOTHING in this world is for free. If the US goes to war, it is to protect their investments and their own interrests. Not that that's unusual though, everyone would do the same thing. But if there somewhere in the world a war going on, and it's effects don't hurt US economics, they simply don't give a crap, just like everyone else.

 

off topic:

@ Darkwolf:

What??? "Pots and kettles" refers to "That's the pot calling the kettle black" - not a racist colloquialism, but a saying that refers to one group criticizing another group for something when it does exactly the same thing!

back on topic:

I agree, Laches - shame on Germany for looking out for their own economic welfare - I mean, we here in the US almost NEVER look out for our own economic welfare!!

 

I've also heard on various news reports that Germany has more than just oil and weapons contracts with Iraq.
And if oil is a reason for going to war, I say fine. Remember what Saddam did last time?
I am all for developing alternative fuels and such. But to just stop using oil all together and start using other forms like some people say, just isn't going to happen. The closest thing we have to an alternative at an economical price is the hybrids that are starting to come out there. Yeah, a hydrogen car would be great, but it costs too much to produce the car and the fuel. I personally don't want to be paying $3 or more at the pump.

 

why havent we heared of it? because it is not illegal to sell sodium cyanide, which is also useful in medical research. also, because all they say is that the shipment came from germany, it is simple enough to find an independent trader of such goods

 

Pac Man

Did you even read my response to Laches?

I am not claiming that the US is being altruistic. The US is going to disarm Iraq because Saddam poses a threat to the US and our interests. This is both a physical and economic threat.

The funny thing is, it seems that the leaders of the countries in opposition to the US stance on the "axis of evil' are claiming that they want a peaceful solution, but what they aren't discussing is that they are allegedly making billions of dollars selling questionable items to these countries and buying oil with secret contracts. I would have no problem with Germany and France opposing the US in its stance if they would be honest and admit why they are opposing it. Stop hiding behind claiming to be more civilized, and that the US is just war mongering. The fact is that they realize that if these alleged sales and contracts are proven to exist, world condemnation will fall on them. France and Germany's stance on Iraq is so illogical that even the candidate EU nations will not stand with them, even though Chirac is threatening them exclusion from the EU. Makes me wonder if Iraq is blackmailing Germany and France, or if their stance against the US is a political move to acquire more leverage in the EU.

Shoshino,

Germany signed an agreement to not sell such items to countries such as N. Korea. I guess that tells us what Germany's word is worth.

I am sure that N. Korea is only using it for legitimate purposes .

Falstaff,

I wouldn't use that phrase around some of my friends; it could land you in the hospital. It shouldn't be a racist phrase, but in some circles it is. They feel that this phrase uses calling something black as a negative connotation.

[ February 18, 2003, 17:09: Message edited by: Darkwolf ]

 

This is the first time in my life I've ever heard anyone even suggest that "the pot calling the kettle black" is racist. Your friends understand that black is also a color and that as far as I know kettles and pots don't belong to any particular race?

 

First off I think it is mainly Russia and France that have oil contracts with Saddam's goverment, contracts that would be void if he got out of power. That may be one reason they are against but I dont think it is a major one, just as I think the lack of US contracts with Saddam's goverment for oil to be one of the reasons for them wanting a war but not a major one.

As for Germany selling chemicals to N.Korea so firstly dont I think it is the german government, secondly as has been stated it was something that could be used in alot of different things and thirdly everyone does it. Almost all the chemical and biological weapons that the inspectors are looking after in Iraq was given/sold to Iraq by the US in the past.

 

Laches,

My friends, or I should probably say associates, would not appreciate a lecture from me on what constitutes racism. They believe that they live with it, and I don't, so unless I want to make enemies of people I work with, I am not going to make an issue of it.

joac,

Any oil contracts that any UN member has outside of agreements to trade Iraqi oil for food and medical supplies are already void. Any UN member who arranges contracts to purchase oil from Iraq during the UN sanctions is in violation of these same sanctions. Thus any contracts with Iraq are already void. If such contracts are to the benefit of Iraq, I am sure that the new Iraqi government will be happy to honor them. If they are not to the benefit of Iraq, then shame on any country using the situation of Saddam and the UN to negotiate themselves an unfair deal, all the while supposedly supporting the sanctions.

I believe that the German government signed an agreement to not sell such items to such countries. Are you telling me that companies that operate within the confines of Germany are not bound by international agreements that signed by the lawful government? Especially when it comes to exports?

Do you really believe that the N. Koreans are not going to use any of this chemical for weapons development? If you do, you are not a confused jerk (as your avatar states), you are just completely naïve.

Oh, and not all of the items the bumblers are looking for originated from the US. They are also trying to stumble over chemicals that were manufactured by Iraq using equipement Germany sold to them.

Nobody is completey clean when it comes to Iraq!

[ February 18, 2003, 18:56: Message edited by: Darkwolf ]

 

perhaps germany didnt sell it, as ive said, it is simple to get it through independent means, it is a common lab composition

 

Darkwolf, europe is also selling acetone to Colombia. They use it there to make cocaine. And the Colombians sell it to america. Do you see the link?

/me goes to buy a bunker, just in case ....

 

I think the oil contracts would have came in power after the sanctions had been lifted. But as the future goverment in Iraq will be US puppets it is obvious that they will void any agreements that Saddam entered and enter their own to the benefit of the US.

I never said that N.Korea wouldnt use it to create nerve toxins, I said that it could be used to other things but if you read and understood my whole post (which might be too much to ask of you Darkwolf considering your trackrecord) you would see that my main points was that it wasnt the German goverment that did it, you can never fully control what your companies do, this doesnt condone their actions nor Germanies responsibilities but considiring the context it is in it doesnt really matter as no one is in a situation to blame anyone as everyone is selling arms to everyone.

 

Ragusa,

Apples and oranges! Colombia is not engaged in terrorism, or the production of WMD.

Try to make it tougher on me next time.

Sho

Read the post directly above yours.

joac,

Your last post is total BS. If that was the case then these countries should be jumping on board to join the coalition so that they can have a say in the new government. France, Germany, Belgium, Luxemburg and Russia are not going to stop the US and the rest of Europe from taking Saddam out. And the US is not going to set up a puppet government that is going to be out to hurt our supposed allies!

That is a stupid argument.

Iraq will be an active OPEC member, OPEC controls the flow of oil for almost all major producers. If the US set up contracts with Iraq that were that favorable, OPEC would embargo, and the US knows better than to travel that road again.

And I read all of your post; unfortunately some of it is just so inane as to be below consideration.

[ February 18, 2003, 18:57: Message edited by: Darkwolf ]

 

Darkwolf, I hope you can see why I wanted to show the silliness of the initial attribution to me of a racist remark.

Also, I'm curious, do you refer to joacqin as Joke as a way of demeaning what he says or .... hmmm, trying to think of other plausible meanings. Anyways, I'm just curious since it's usually abreviated joacq or joac or usually just joacqin from what I have seen.

I just mention it because you come across as fairly hostile.

 

My apologies to joacquin, I will edit my posts.

 

These days germany may not support what the US deem to be the best for the world, but don't forget that that not everything the US deems to be so is exactly that. I remember the episodes of Busch and the Tokyo treaty, the US opposition against the bioweapon convention, the refusal to join the jurisdiction of the IC and the ICC and the cancellation (or non continuing) the ABM treaty.
The US are pretty much convinced about their moral superiority. That can be easily used as a shortcut argument. You are good, the others are evil .... You may not like it but germany acts as much as an independent country as the US do when they have a different opinion on a subject.

You may be justified to disagree with the way we handle things and indeed there is *reason* for critic. Our chancellor is the primary reason why germany is making the impression of beeing against everything. Against war with UN, against war without UN. That is a clear weakness and the way he's wrecking our foreign relationships is almost criminal. And his lack of cooperation and dialogue with his partners, including the US is terrifying.
His point of view on Iraq neglects the very fact that without US pressure the inspectors wouldn't even be in Iraq. He also ignores the question: What to do if the inspections show violations and what to do in case Iraq refuses to cooperate? Just going home and preach peace? He's selling air in bags - the people may like peace but the general and cathegoric pacifism here is blind and shortsighted. And a politician promising peace at all costs is a fool.

Our chancellor is a poll-man. When the polls showed that the population supported NATO's military action against serbia on the Kosovo, he joined - amusingly against international law - now that people are against war he's against war too. Unfortunately he won the last elections that way, with a hair advantage.
Soon we'll have elections in east germany, where social democrats are under pressure - anti war sentiments might be useful and draw votes from the ex-communists to the social democrats. Schröder's claim that the iraq crisis is responsible for the current economical situation in germany is nothing but an excuse for his lack of policy and action there over the last five years. Our chancellor's motivation to speak out against a war are purely internally motivated. Our chancellor has showed clear lack of interest for international subjects (to the horror of our foreign secretary), by menthality Schröder's still a province lord. So far so bad.

Our chancellor may be an idiot, but that's it. I actually can only regret that and how he wrecked the german US relationships, not to mention his horrid influence on NATO. Other politicians would make a better politic, I really wished we'd have a Schmidt today, but now we are punished with Schröder as the US are punished with Bush.

As for this chemical story:

And it is used for gold mining ( more here ), it is used in university labs and some more applications.

America in a war on drugs. Acetone is a dual use chemical too. Your mum is probably using acetone to solve her nail polish. When you're on the conspiracy trip already, why don't you swallow that we evil euros have an interest in drugs messing up US society. So, when shipping acetone to Colombia, don't we undermine the US war efforts there?! ...

The last thing I allow you to say is that germany is making profit on costs of world security. What will your insulted patriotism makes you see next? Another conspiracy? Grow up.

[ February 18, 2003, 19:25: Message edited by: Ragusa ]

 

DarkWolf: The article states that there was a shipment of this stuff from Germany to North Korea. That doesn't mean it came from a german company. Could it not be that it was produced in some other country and the company used a german harbor to transfer it from one ship to another?