Just completed OC for the first time. Random thoughts.

Remove all ads!

Yeah, only several years late, but I finally got around to NWN.

Just some random thoughts from a "newbie" that I figured some may find entertaining:

1. It can be forgiven to have a camera/engine that doesn't make objects between camera and character translucent. It can also be forgiven to have a camera that isn't great at avoiding getting stuck on or behind objects. It's utterly unforgivable to have both AND to pack your tileset with all sorts of extraneous ceiling-type objects and rubbish that serve no purpose but to make camera management a complete freaking pain in the neck. Archs, banners, crossbeams, even stalactites (hanging out of thin air, WTF?) ... what were they thinking?

2. Almost wet myself with laughter first time encountering Orc enemies. Those models were just too cute. Were they based on some kind of plushy toys or something? (Still laugh whenever I think of NWN Orcs.)

3. Never before encountered such artificial and godawful dialogue trees in my life (and I played through IWD2's Ice Temple and Dragon's Eye areas). Did no-one at Bioware feel that the dialogue should ever, y'know, actually read like dialogue?

4. I've never known an RPG that was so poor at disguising the underlying quest structure of "find the foozle". Most RPGs have these quests; many are predominately built from them, but most have *something* that dresses-up the bare-bones so the whole game doesn't feel like a protracted treasure-hunt.

5. I've never been convinced that the DnD staple of "save or die" spells/effects added anything (good) to the gaming experience. Even with 3rd Edition's elegant reworking of the saving throws system the whole "random chance of instant death" shtick remains kinda crude/weak. Sure enough, my Rogue's deadliest opponents were Bodaks (death gaze) and Water Elementals (drown attack). Seems a little silly that deadliness is often so far removed from difficulty. e.g.: Torias was very difficult - taking a lot of time and resources - but not really deadly, if you see what I mean?

6. Although I'm sure the eye-candy seems pretty dated to most by now, I loved the combat animations. Slashing, lungeing, ducking, blocking, parrying ... I could watch my dual-wielding rogue do that all day long and never tire of the "cool" factor.

7. 36 Quickslot just ain't enough. (Playing a spellcaster must be a nightmare.)

8. Balance between fodder and bosses was wonky as heck. It was unbelievably boring wading through pointless yard trash. Often I was half-asleep by the time I reached a boss (which were so much harder than their minions it was silly).

9. The final battle felt more annoying than epic. Brilliant designer brain-fart: let's create an instant death zone, but make it look just like a normal Blade Barrier spell! DOH!

10. For all my complaints, there were some brilliant moments, and I'm glad to have finally knocked another RPG off my list. I do hope that SOU and HOTU are an improvement, though. I have the Darkness Over Daggerford mod ready for a rainy weekend too.

Cheers,
Luiz.

EDIT: silly typos.

[ August 14, 2007, 17:46: Message edited by: Luiz ]

 

Yeah, it's well known that the OC is pretty crappy. The expansions are better, and DoD is really great. But you'll need longer than a weekend, I fear.


Btw, the 36 quickslots are a pain in the behind for casters. I usually fill them all with spells and open the inventory for items.

 

1. Entirely agree with you on that. I remember the expansions (specifically HotU) improving the camera control issue, but it was still a pain.

3. To be fair it's not the worst dialogue I've seen in a CRPG, but it is pretty bad. What I found most irritating (something Bioware had already heavily used in ToB) was that in many occasions you were presented with a list of choices, and no matter which you picked the answer you got was the same. Now because the choices were very different (good vs evil, truth vs lie, etc), the only way to accomodate all of them in the answer was to have a very generic answer that didn't really say anything, then completely change the subject in the next lines. If someone in real life tried to get out of answering my questions like this I'd be pretty annoyed.

4. The vast majority of CRPGs (almost all of the more recent ones) have a Kill Foozle plot. What I found more depressing about the OC was that it combined this with the drearist "pick up sticks" subplots in just about every chapter. Doing this once per game is boring. Doing it again and again is too much.

5. The "save or die" effects are not a big problem unless their happening to one character results in a game over. I found this pretty irritating about the BG games - if any other party member dies you can raise him, so why won't your party do this if your PC gets killed? With NWN things are even worse, because you only have one character, so you can't hide him behind stronger characters in tough battles - and as for the hirelings, I had to raise them so many times I eventually gave up.

6. The animations are good, but watching your PC and his enemy miss time and time again for half a minute redefines boring (although, to be fair, BG1 had the same problem in the early game)

7. Yes, it was a nightmare. Playing a Sorceror as well meant that every known spell had to fit somewhere - I eventually settled for having to cast most of the buffs the long way.

9. I'm not a fan of Kill Foozle endings - they're either too easy and leave you with no sense of satisfaction, or they're so hard you don't feel accomplishment but sheer relief when you're done.

10. Both expansions are an improvement. Most people prefer HotU, although I found it way, way too munchkin for its own good. SoU is pretty good if you don't mind a low-level campaign.

 

2. You, too? I wanted a teddy bear that looks like them.

6. The animation where both weapons attack was stupid, otherwise yeah, it was cool. IIRC Bastard sword attacks had very stupid animation.

7. Being a spellcaster does suck, this is the reason all games should copy BG.

8. Indeedy, but most of the bosses just had way too much HP.

You forgot Aribeth's *great* voice acting.

[ August 19, 2007, 13:11: Message edited by: Trellheim ]

 

I never bothered finishing the OC, and probably won't...there's just too much "go and collect the 4 ___'s" type quests.

I think the OC should have started with just the plaque, with no known cure and no shopping list of "waterdhavian" creaters to hunt down.

Let the player be the one to search for a cure, and then have them hunt for the creatures in their own lands.

That pretty much goes for the whole OC though...they spoon-feed you everything. I've only played a little ways into SoU but it seems a little better about not doing that kind of thing.

But it's a hard habit to break for RPG makers I think...

 

The OC pretty much ruined it for me, it takes the worst bits of faster paced games like diablo, bits of D&D, and blitzes them together to form a mish mash of bad gameplay and storyline.

never played much of SoU or HotU.

Why cant anybody produce another BG or IWD? What, did party D&D games become unpopular? I guess everyone wants an "instant fix", ie any one character can finish the game, or an MMORPG, which obviously means other people control the other party members.

 

I think part of the problem is moving to 3D. For some reason, it seems that party-type RPG's don't convert to 3D easily. (BG to NWN...Ultima 7 to Ultima 9...etc.)

But also I think it's a time\money thing. All these companies are being pushed to get product out the door so the parent company makes some $$$.

It's hard to really put the time and effort into something when you've got someone looking over your back, asking when it'll be done.

That's why some of the NWN user mods are so good. These people were creating mods in their own time, without pay, and trying to really communicate an idea or story. Sure, it's not perfect...but the few user mods I've played so far have been better than the OC and (so far) SoU.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that some of the user mods I've played for NWN are better than "greats" like Deus Ex (Gasp!) and Half-Life 2 (Blasphemer!).

 

I agree with a lot of your points. The one good thing about the OC is that it showed the potential that the engine had. Many users have made great mods that are far better than the OC (or SOU or HOTU for that matter).
If I were you, I would skip the official expansions, get over to nwnvault, and pick out a user mod. Plenty to choose from.

 

I agree in general, Jack, but I wouldn't pass up Hordes of the Underdark. I thought it was excellent. But yes, pick up some fan-made mods. Even Bioware's premium modules are worth a look.

 

I'm a little surprised my post got as many replies as it did. Clearly there's a lot a interest in this community for the game still, although I'm guessing it's 99% mod-related nowadays(?). Thanks all for responding. It's nice to see I'm not completely mental in my view of things.

I could see potential in the engine, but it was sad the OC was so... flimsy. There was stuff I liked that I didn't detail though, such as Linu, who I loved as a henchie (I made sure to install a henchman AI mod before starting though). She was a fine character and a strong ally for my rogue.

I briefly began SOU, and I can see from the opening few areas that a lot more thought has gone into it, but for now I think I'm going to take a break from NWN and knock off KotOR instead. It's another game I've waited years to play and finally have the computer powerful enough to do so! (Yay!)

As for the Darkness Over Daggerford mod taking longer than a weekend to complete, considering all the positive things I've heard about it, that hardly sounds like a bad thing. Right?


Cheers,
Luiz.

 

Actually, the user content added alot, not just modules, also in tiles and placeables and stuff. As such, what you see in the oc as environment is nowhere nere what the engine actually is capable of.

On another point, a little of topic, the reason in bg you can't raise the pc like the npcs is because the moment he dies, he is absorbed into the energy/ritual/matrix stuff that is supposed to revive his dad. That's why you get that nice animation that probably nobody ever watches after a game over. The only part that's strange, is that you actually can res imoen. Which creates a serious inconsistency.