Nun accepts abortion, saves mother's life - and is excommunicated!

The Catholic Church has a longstanding policy against abortion. Her actions led to an abortion so the church did what the policy said. I don't have a problem with that.

On the other hand, it clearly shows how the Catholic Church is out of touch with its U.S. followers. All of the Catholics that I know are not pleased by this issue, and are still very angry and bitter about Parish closings, and the pedofile priest problem. My best friend and his family have left the Catholic Church and joined something called the American Catholic Church (or something similar) because of all the issues it has had over the past decade or so.

I hope this nun manages to do something similar and finds her place in the spiritual world.

 

Imbecilic, bureaucratic, knee jerk decision making is hardly a phenomenon that is solely the purview of the RC church. That said, it in no way exonerates the imbecile who made this decision in this particular instance.

 

True, but as someone who was raised Catholic, it is all too common.

 

The Catholic Church made the right decision for the church. They cannot compromise their value system. Period. Religions look at this life as a waypoint, not the destination -- the path to that final destination can be difficult and require sacrifice (even the ultimate sacrifice).

I believe the nun made the right choice, but then I'm not religious.

 

It just seems ridiculous to say "well, the fetus is going to die anyway, but we'd rather that it die of natural causes, and take the mother down with it, that perform an abortion and save the mother".

 

Lawful good doesn't mean Lawful Stupid. By the same token, religious and value driven does not mean stupid either. Splunge has the right of it -- It's not a compromise of religious values to look at a situation and modify your behaviour accordingly. If the powers that be actually listened to Christ, they would remember how he slammed them to the ground when they gave him grief for what amounted to a picnic on the Sabbath.

It's good to stick close to your principles and values, but it's also important to recognize that at some points it is necessary to sacrifice a lesser value for a greater one -- in this case, I think the greater value involved was the mother's right to live, especially when you consider that AFAIK the child's life was not saveable anyway. Mother's continuing life (as opposed to death) > dogmatic anti-abortion stance.

 

A friend of mine said that the Catholic church doesn't believe in God, just the Hail Mary

 

To play devil's advocate here (a role I'm not entirely unfamiliar with in many different ways):

How is "the right to live" a religious belief in any way? There is no "right to live" in any religion I know of -- in fact, most religions preach a rigid adherence to doctrine and it is an honor to die upholding that doctrine. The pain and tribulations of this world are turned into rewards in the hereafter for those who remain true to their faith; a woman who dies rather than compromise her beliefs will be rewarded for that sacrifice. Thinking along this line; "a lesser value for a greater one" is not the issue here but rather valuing this earthly life over the eternal soul. Once a person has decided that the 'here and now' is more important than the eternal soul the church must act accordingly.

The nun, as a representative of the church, decided the woman's earthly life was more important than the woman's eternal soul and conspired with the woman to kill the fetus. How should the church have responded to such blasphemy?

Once again, I agree with what the nun did, but then I don't believe in a 'hereafter' and 'eternal rewards' are meaningless to me.

 

It is a decision made as an organisation, not a situation decided on as a personal basis.

As a rule a representative of the church is to represent the particular beliefs and rules within that position - while I believe the punishment put upon her was far too harsh, to let it slide is to condone the act and would open another can of worms.

I hope the mother is well and the nun finds something for herself. I can't imagine how difficult the decision would have been for her - she would have known the consequences beforehand.

 

If the "right to live" isn't a religious doctrine, then why would the church be opposed to abortion?

 

The two are not the same Splunge. While there may be no "right to life" it is clearly against doctrine to take a life (even your own). To answer the next logical question; if a medical procedure is immoral a person cannot use it to save their own life (not doing the procedure would not be construed as suicide) -- in this case abortion is the "immoral procedure" but you could extend that to organ harvesting from unwilling (and still living) donors.

 

But if there is no "right to life", then what is wrong with taking a life?

 

Therein lies a fundamental religious precept -- a person's life is in God's hands and the person has no "right" to their own life. In fact, every person's life is in God's hands to with as He will (the Old Testiment is full of examples). To take a life is akin to saying "look at me, I am like God" and is a sin (unless the taking of the life was directed by God, or at least allowed).

At least that's my limited understanding of the issue.

 

I wouldn't, either (or not nearly as much) if the RC church responded that way to other actions that went against the dogma (whether the pedopriests or anyone else). Yet who else has been publicly excommunicated recently? It seems like not voting against another's abortion - in such a case, no less - is worse than any other sins one could commit. Well, I call BS on that moral system, I can tell you that much.

Seriously, it makes me shake my head. Is this woman, who compromised with a theological principle to save a person's life, the person who represents the antithesis of all the Catholic church stands for? Good grief.

 

Ah, OK. That makes sense. (Well, not really, but I see what you're saying.)

 

Yeah, Splunge ... there are many, MANY reasons I'm not religious....

 

I am religious and a practicing Catholic who is also Pro-Life.

I don't see why the nun was excommunicated.

I'm quite sure that the Catholic Church is against abortion and am glad that it is.

I'm also very sure I've heard abortion is acceptable in situations where the life of the mother is at stake.

If this situation qualified as one of those then I see no reason why what the nun did is against the dogma of the Catholic Church.

The excommunication in this case doesn't strike me something that should be "automatic" and generally it certainly shouldn't be as that is supposed to mean something. Things that mean something good or bad should be thought about and not automatic and/or knee jerk.

I wonder if the particular Archbishop there set some sort of standing policy in place that goes beyond what is normally viewed as appropriate.

Anyway I felt I had to say something because I didn't read anyone else noting that what the nun did may well have been acceptable within Catholic teaching on abortion.

Though Catholic teaching on abortion doesn't mean that a local Archbishop isn't going to be excessive or a harda*s about something.



And let me remind you that I am saying this as a Pro-Lifer who is against abortion in cases of rape and/or incest (the baby isn't the one who committed the crime in my POV but is being made to pay the highest price in those situations).

 

Yahoo Answer's answer to the Catholic Church's position on this

Apologies for the dodgy reference but I think it's better than the description in the newspaper which doesn't sound right. Catholicism doesn't allow abortions at all, as even if the mother is at risk then you are still choosing to place one life over another. That's not quite the full story though. It is allowable to perform an operation to save the mother's life which has the side effect of saving the mother's life. In such a case the intention is to do good and the bad effect is not intended, merely foreseen.

I can't say I agree with this. The distinction seems pretty much meaningless in practice, as we see in this case.

 

I suspect that is a typo. The the bad effect (killing the baby) is not intended. The death of the baby is seen as a side effect of saving the mother's life.

I think we can agree on that and I can say it is quite common among Catholics, including myself, to believe abortion is acceptable (not desirable, but acceptable) in order to save a mother's life.

EDIT:

On that last point I see it as acceptable as the intention and the desire is to preserve life and not allowing it would lead to more death.

Not that different from a situation where one's life is threatened and the person defends him or herself via deadly means. The intention is not that another human dies but that a human continues to live.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090428173915AAFYIiN