POLL: Gender related opression

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In western society it is permissable for a man to walk around without a shirt. The same is not true of women. Is this an example of gender related opression?

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 26 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

Poll Results: Gender related opression (26 votes.)

Gender related opression (Choose 1)
* Yes - 27% (7)
* No - 54% (14)
* Unsure - 19% (5)

 

I voted unsure because I believe it includes a number of factors. 1) Men are (in general) more aroused by the body of the sex they are attracted to. This is why women are (generally) less attracted to porn. Women tend to require more emotional attraction in addition to bodily attraction than men do. 2) Men have, historically, dominated (at least Western) society (exeptions do occur, see the celts). Thus, Men have had the power in relationships with Women. This has led to men being able to "oppress" women by keeping them under more layers of clothing than men (such as most Islamic tradtions, the victorian tradition, ect.). This was fundamentally due to the male desire to keep one's wife from becoming a sexual object for other men. 3) Though the tradition of Women being "forced" to wear shirts whereas Men have been excused from this requirement may have origionated from Male oppression, I don't think it continues because of the said oppression. I believe that most Women would feel uncomfortable walking around bare from the waist up, and I believe this is because the tradition is rooted in the psyche from a very early age. It has become a habit that exists because it is a habit, not because it is activley enforced by Men.

 

Actually, the courts here found that women are legally entitled to walk around topless just the same as men.

 

What country is this?

 

No. The Great White North? I think that's Canada...

 

You need to take into account that it's damned uncomfortable for anyone larger than an A-cup to walk around without some kind of support, not to mention that doing so leads to prematurely saggy breasts.

 

Just because something is uncomfortable doesn't mean it should be illegal.

 

Over here, women are free to breastfeed in public but its a little too cold to walk around topless!

I have been to many European countries countless times and I don't raise an eyebrow when I see a topless woman sunbathing. Generally its okay to be topless while sunbathing, but not to walk around or sit at a beach bar as this is considered disrespectful (depending on the country).

You see all shapes and sizes so its no big deal. Only immature people cannot deal with nudity.

 

*blinks* I'm the only 'yes' vote?

If it's illegal - then yes, it is. But as Rally so nicely points out - just because it's not illegal doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea

Edit: you are talking about it being illegal, not just socially unacceptable, right?

 

As Aikanaro points out, calling the illegality of something opression is one thing. But enforcing social acceptance out of some sence of thwarted rights never seems right to me. It's like the pro-gay, pro-choice etc social engineering the left loves so much.

I don't have a problem with any degree of nudity if the reason is comfort and if it's more or less reasonable. Honestly, here and now, what is the topless fight about: really freeing women and giving them the same rights men have, i.e. to lose the top on the beach for sunbathing comfort, or is it freedom from modesty, morality? Freedom to be sexy, freedom to troll for attention, freedom to stare because if you make it legal for a million women to do something, by sheer number at least a couple of such cases should happen during a guy's holidays, by sheer number? Especially if you tell them it's their right, they will start doing it because the best method of compulsion is telling someone doing what you want is his inalienable right which is being taken away from him.

 

Being paid less than male counterparts: oppression.
Being passed over for promotion due to being female: oppression.
Discouraged from pursuing interests in math and science: oppression.
Being kicked off the team in state finals because your a girl playing on the boy's team: oppression.
Having your credibility put on trail as a rape victim: oppression.
Being 'forced' to wear a shirt in public: calling this oppression just seems overkill to me.

 

I voted no, because the only scenario I can come up with where it's acceptable for a man to be topless but not a woman is at the beach or a public swimming pool. Men walking around topless isn't socially acceptable either - at least for the most part. I don't know of any occupation (except maybe body builder) where shirts are optional. Most businesses also require their customers to wear shirts too. Add to the fact that the vast majority of people live in a climate where it's too cold to go topless for a good chunk of the year. So all told, for all types of reasons - modesty among them - both men and women tend NOT to be topless. I always wear at shirt, even when I'm doing yard work in the summer and it's hot enough to go without a shirt. About the only time I'm in public and I'm not wearing a shirt is at the beach, and I can't say that happens for any significant portion of my life.

Because of all of these factors, I can't see it as oppression, because most women would always be wearing a shirt anyway. Either it's too cold, it's not acceptable attire for work or even for going into a store, or it's for modesty. Those I think are the three main reasons, and they apply equally to men and women. (I think that modesty applies to men as well, unless you have a good physique, you may be hesitant to go topless.) I'll also take Rally's word for it that it can be pretty uncomfortable for women too.

Finally - the only place where men going topless is acceptable - beach/swimming pool - women's bathing suits tend to be MORE revealilng than men's bathing suits - so the arguement doesn't even work there either.

 

A topless man and a topless woman are fundamentally different because a woman has, uh, functional[\I] mammary glands? I have two children and my wife's breasts had nothing to do with the act that created them, and then my kids drank from them. I sincerely hope that no one is trying to imply that breastfeeding is a sexual act.

@Aldeth: I see shirtless runners and construction workers every day.

[ February 22, 2006, 17:33: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

In the Iowan Winter? Seriously, 99% of runners I see wear shirts, even if it's just to whipe the sweat from their eyes. As for construction workers, maybe this is something that's unique to Maryland, but all construction workers are required to wear these plastic orange vest things so that they are clearly visible to drivers. They look like they would really chafe if you didn't have a shirt underneath them.

 

State regs, I guess. I remember that from when I lived in MD. Here, runners run shirtless all the time (in the summer and spring) and construction workers tend to be shirtless when the weather is hot.

 

@ deepfae - I am indeed from Canada.

The Court's decision was back in 1996 and despite an initial uproar from some conservative groups there has never really been any noticable result of the decision.

Even on the hottest summer day you won't find topless women walking around. Topless men are a fairly common sight during the hot summer months so despite the courts decision nothing really has changed.

 

@Drew: Erm, is passing water a sexual act because you do it with your penis? By the same logic you're using? Or is washing your privates a sexual act? What about gynaecologists? Not every act that involves sexual organs is sexual. And sexual organs isn't the same as reproductory organs.

@T2Bruno: It's up to the claimant to prove the claim and the defendant doesn't have to prove anything. However, the defendant is free to provide proof or partial proof towards his innocence. Where words matter, credibility also does. This has nothing to do with genders. Rape victims aren't female and rapists male by definition.

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Besides, I think most of the stuff with equal toplessness rights is not about comfort or rights but about being sexy. Same as if you tried to ban thong straps and triangles with low-riding trousers. It's not about comfort, it's about people trying to be sexy. If a woman doesn't normally wear a bra or wears it for reasons such as support (what Rally talked about) but not to prevent peeking, then she's consistent. But if she considers you a pervert for looking and if she's protective of her cleavage, then she's inconsistent and her beach toplessnes is sexual.

If it were about comfort, really, then who would I be to tell people to employ some standards that aren't already there. If there's no modesty concern, there's no need to make it up unless to protect people from abuse or guard public order. Where I, myself, have a problem with any kind of clothing or lack thereof, is people objectifying themselves and oversexualising life and relations between people. Not the areas it covers or not.

 

Pure technical, yes, as was my vote(I am Male)
In a personal aspect I find it low class to be shirtless in any public situation. It is black and white, but so is the poll, and the law.

 

Of course it is gender related opression, the fact that the opression have ancient cultural and sexual causes doesnt make it any less oppressive.

That said there are more practical and more important issues of gender inequality to take care of. I also think that in many places it isnt all that illegal for women to go barebreasted, most just choose not to do it. At least over here. Beaches and pools and in general places where people are trying to get a tan are riddled with topless women.