Quality of police...

Barmy Army · Apr 10, 2007

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Why are British police just MUCH more adept at sorting out crowd trouble than others? Especially Italian?

Last week, in Rome, police caused a flare up at the Roma vs Man Utd game by going around whacking Man Utd fans with batons, including women, children and old men. People who were causing no trouble at all were getting beaten up by police. Google it and you will find many links about the disgusting behaviour of the Italian police. They said they used 'necessary force' but were completely out of order. They simply had no idea how to calm down a firey situation. Man Utd fans were warned prior to travelling that they may be subject to violence and get involved in trouble.

Tonight, at the return leg, The Ultra (Roma's hooligan group) are out in force. Roma fans have attacked Man Utd fans, attacked police, robbed the Man Utd club store, thrown missiles. Some Man Utd fans have attacked Roma fans because of the bad blood from the previous leg. Man Utd fans are REALLY unhappy at how they got treated in Italy. Explosions have been going off, all sorts. English police have kept discipline. Largely contained the problem now. Kept the fans apart and are now mostly on top of the problem. Why are British police so much more restained?

On another note, this must surely mean that Italian clubs are banned from European football. The behaviour of their fans is absolutely disgusting and enough is enough. A lot of the Roma Ultra have 'Invasion of Manchester' (I quote) written on their shirts.

If any of you have 24 hour news channels, drop it on, this could kick off again at any moment. The situation is very, VERY tense. Police are doing their best to hold the line between the two sets of fans in a stand off, but they are massively outnumbered. This could get very messy.

Duffin · Apr 10, 2007

Haha rogered 7-1! I think the British police is so much better at this for two reasons. Firstly the UK has gone through it's own era of football hooliganism so the police are much better prepared, not to mention the fans imho in Britian are now much more responsible because they have seen the damage hooliganism can cause to the game.

Secondly the clubs in Britain work with the police, they pay them to attend the games and place them where they know they will be most effective. This isnt the case in most mainland European leagues where they have no influence over the police, they just go and do what they want basically. Infact alot of the time the clubs dont actually own the stadiums so they could'nt give a toss how its policed. Things really do need to change, as it is I would never attend an away European match right now.

When Man Utd played Lille in France a similar situation arose, where too many English fans were put into a section of the crowd and being crushed, so they tried to get out and the French police started beating them back in. Disgraceful and was so close to another Hillsborough. Obviously communication is an issue, the French did'nt understand what the problem was so immediately thought the fans were causing trouble.

And your right the English police are much better, I went to see Man Utd play Benfica in the last group game and there was not one hint of trouble.

Barmy Army · Apr 10, 2007

7-1 Jesus Christ! Man Utd were brilliant, absolutely fantastic. Carrick is really removing any doubt from my mind. The guy is a right good player! Everyone was good really to be fair. Man Utd were just red hot! Roma were complete rubbish. They missed Perrotta in the middle of the park, they had nothing there. Best goal was by De Rossi though - world class.

Shoshino · Apr 11, 2007

i think a major problem on the continent is that police want to beat up british fans, theyve got a really bad rep for hooliganism, and the police just want to hurt anyone who may possibly become out of line

AMaster · Apr 11, 2007

Could be. On the other hand, it might be a little more nuanced than that. Let's turn to Fred Reed (Rags, I hate you for introducing me to that site):

That having been said, let's think about riots from a cop's perspective.

Suppose the worst---that a huge racial riot breaks out in a hypothetical large city. This isn't fairy-tale stuff: It has happened many times in the United States. You're the chief of police. What do you do?

Remember that if you actually are the chief, you can't dodge the question by talking about how things ought to be or what should have been done. You have to actually do something. What?

To begin with, you probably aren't well prepared. The reason may be culpable complacency on your part. More likely, budgets were tight and you knew that any regular training of riot-suppression forces would lead to charges that you were a racist, fascist, thug, Bull Conner clone, and so on. Nobody in the legislature would take a chance on training. So you aren't ready.

Reports come in that looting and burning are occurring on a large scale, followed by reports of gunfire. Your choices are:

First, do nothing. Large regions of the city will then be burned out and looted dry. You will be accused of racial insensitivity at best, outright racism at worst. "Chief You obviously didn't care about the sufferings of blacks and Hispanics and simply let them destroy their neighborhoods. The latent racism is obvious, etc."

And is it really the job of cops to let people burn cities?

Second, take a hard-nosed approach. Declare the equivalent of martial law. Move in with force, if you have it. Tell your men to shoot looters on sight. Tell them that, if shot at, they should return fire and shoot to kill.

This works. It's also ugly. Inevitably, some people will be killed who weren't doing anything, or not doing anything deserving death. The hatreds and resentments engendered will last a long time. Maybe by doing this you would in fact save many more lives and prevent the leveling of half the city, but you will never be able to prove that what you prevented would have happened.

Anyway, it's not how we do things in this country.

Third, let your men slog it out, with tear gas and riot batons, ducking bricks and hiding from snipers, scared half to death with their own survival at stake. (Ever been in a bad section with one other cop and fifty obviously hostile men sort of, well, encircling you? You're helpless if the authority of the uniform fails. Add a riot and it ain't fun. Ain't fun anyway.)

What it comes to is that there isn't a good choice.

Look at it from the street cop's point of view. You may think, watching television, that the cops have the advantage, that they're the bullies. They have teargas and guns and all.

It's not quite like that.

Ever been hit in the face with a brick? Thrown by a nineteen-year-old male with a good arm? Ever seen the next guy go down with fragments of teeth spraying onto the sidewalk? Riots are scary. The cops are in fact outnumbered, however blue their uniforms may be. It takes getting hit about once by a bottle with many hostiles around and your adrenaline sluices loose and your blood pressure goes way up. The fight-or-flight instinct, which is absolutely real, comes into play.

It gets real easy to smack people.

And it would for you, too, gentle reader. The problem is much more the situation than it is the cops.

The officer, trying to clear a chaotic and violent street, tells a guy, "Get out of here!" The guy stands on his rights. "You can't tell me…." The cops clobbers him. Is this right? No. At least it's not desirable. If a man finds his wife in bed with another man, and puts fifteen rounds in him, is it right? Probably not. But don't be surprised.

There are situations in which things happen. Riots are one of them.
Click to expand...

http://www.fredoneverything.net/yySeattleRiots.shtml

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Quality of police...

Barmy Army Simple mind, simple pleasures... Adored Veteran

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Quality of police...

Barmy Army Simple mind, simple pleasures... Adored Veteran

Duffin Gems: 13/31Latest gem: Ziose

Barmy Army Simple mind, simple pleasures... Adored Veteran

Shoshino Irritant Veteran

AMaster Gems: 26/31Latest gem: Diamond

Duffin Gems: 13/31
Latest gem: Ziose

AMaster Gems: 26/31
Latest gem: Diamond