The EU will collapse

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From a friend:

Another hurdle being bandied about on European financial markets(froms someone else):

Both quotes are from Europeans as this "thick American" couldn't get it. Is the above true or false?

[ December 17, 2002, 17:41: Message edited by: Laches ]

 

I have no idea to be honest as I gave up listen to what to what Brussels was dictating our laws should be in the UK a while back. Hopefully however, it will be seen that the EU is actually really messing quite a few countries around, and many are better off out of it.
A friend of mine a while back was going on about Britain possibly joining the US's trading thing, I can't remember details sorry. As he put it "lets do it ". Why? Apart from DVD's and computer games being released at the American dates, Europe is pretty much starting to dictate too much of each individual countries policies IMO.
Also at last look the Euro wasn't very popular in certain quarters and I think the UK government is just willing to whore itself to anyone they think will line their pockets.

 

I'd look up the EU contribution rates if I had the time, but the financial black hole that was East Germany is as far as I'm aware more to blame for the problems faced there than the EU.

They can't blame the rest of the EU for that.

On the topic of unravelling the EU, I think that the real test will come in 2004 when 12 new countries are admitted...... Then we really will see. If it doesn't, how far away is the "United States of Europe?"

 

Whether or not the EU takes the heat when the worldwide debt bubble bursts as the current economic cycle reaches its nadir (all efforts of Alan Greenspan and other central bankers to the contrary aside) remains to be seen. The global economy IS slowing - actually contracting, in Japan - and it will be up to each country's leaders to determine how they want to ride out the storm. I suppose that blaming it all on the EU is one possible pathway, even if it's not particularly realistic.

 

You must remember that Germany would still be in a sh** hole if America hadn't funded it after the war.

 

Viking, actually the quotes were in the context of a discussion about the German financial problems.

Here is a longer quote simply to give the preceding context of the discussion:

It isn't that they think the German's woes are because of the EU solely but rather when the German's start to see their benefits shrink they will no longer be willing to fund the EU regardless of why the crisis originated.

Personally, I find the idea of an attack by Soros to be a bit farfetched although I understand he has done similar things before. Since he has poured so much into Hungary that I suspect he is pretty patriotic and destroying the EU hurts Hungary's chances of joining up later. Apparently he scares a lot of people though.

 

EU will not collapse as there is too much to lose (money). But not only that.

There is no waving with nukes in Europe, there are no threats in Europe and there is no "you have to eat GM food" hysteria in Europe. Except the possible phobia of mad cows, I can't see any reason why EU should break apart.

Unless it's nuked by the mad bomber who probably doesn't even know where the Europe is on the geographical map and who heard about Europe first time in his life when he became a president. No, this is not an irony, sarcasm, joke or something similar. It's the fact.

 

Vermillion, do you mean NAFTA? That's the only trade thing I can think of at the moment.

Personally, I don't see the United Kingdom joining the North American Free Trade Agreement nations simply because of...well, you know.

 

Extremist, thank you for the wonderfully enlightening post. I was hoping to get some rational discussion from those who might be familiar with the subject. I particularly liked how your post had well thought out and supported opinions.

You were right for pointing out to us "thick Americans" that if there is a problem with the EU it will be big bad America's fault. Your support for this claim was particularly compelling. I can't wait for your next well thought out post.

 

There is no next "well thought out post". I've been pretty clear in my first one and you did read it correctly.
If anything happens, it'll be "big bad america" (USA to be precise, sorry to all Canadians who could misread this). Let's not pretend that it's not so. Unless the GM food pressure on Europe is a hoax?

[ December 17, 2002, 21:28: Message edited by: Extremist ]

 

Alright, this is a bit off topic, but since it is a moderator, why was there a split for these type of topics? According to Tal:

I would like to advocate that one of the new guidelines is that there should generally where possible be support for positions, particularly outrageous ones. I sort of took Tal's reasons for the new forum to be that he might have had this type of idea in mind. I can see no need from the topic to drag this into a debate about America but if you wish to do so, I'm asking for support, in keeping with the spirit behind making an entirely new forum. It should be easy to obtain if it's true, just show how the U.S. is working to undermine the EU (other than talking about stupid "thick Americans" want to NUKE EM ALL!!!!)

 

This is your topic title:
The EU will collapse

On that topic title I've gave you my thoughts which I do believe are serious and on topic. Perhaps I don't look serious, but that's just me then...

If you think it's off topic thought, there is a nice Report Rules Violations link at the top of each thread. No member is excluded from rules and that includes moderator(s) too.

What did you expect me to say anyway? To examine and analyze each sentence from those quotes and put a thought on them? Why would I do that? How can I even explain to you that I don't think that Soros is a capable of destruction of Euro like your friend thinks?
I've simply said that only thing that can do anything are nukes. Are you (your friend) suggesting that Soros keeps his own private collection of such weaponry? Even if you do, I don't believe that except the person I've posted above, there is noone normal on this planet that could even think about nuking anyone. Um, well, ok, let me rephrase - there is noone who has the power to do that like he does.

And I don't know why are you enforcing the "thick american" phrase. I don't call americans as thick anywhere. Perhaps a bit arrogant, but thick, no.

[ December 17, 2002, 22:03: Message edited by: Extremist ]

 

Actually, this is getting somewhere, I hope. You ask:

aside from the fact that it wasn't my friend who was talking about Soros and the guy said that was the feeling in the European markets I think you could explain why you don't think Soros is capable of destroying the EU by saying something like:

"I don't think Soros is able to destroy the EU because ______________." You fill in the blank. Maybe you think like I do that he is a fairly patriotic Hungarian and would see hurting the EU as potentially damaging to Hungary who hopes to join. Maybe you think that while he has destroyed other currencies he doesn't plan to do so with the Euro for other reasons. I don't know why you think Soros can't destroy the EU because up until your last post you never mentioned this is what you thought. You simply insulted the US in a topic that has nothing to do with it and then act upset when I asked for some support.

I thought the whole purpose of "Alley" was to make some attempt at regulating the discussion in a more productive manner. In short, you should be willing to give the reasons behind your opinions. Just like I said above, if you want to say Soros can't destroy the EU that's cool, just please tell us why instead of calling the American President a stupid mad bomber. That isn't particularly rational and I thought the purpose of the split was to inject some measure or rationale into the discussions.

[ December 17, 2002, 22:22: Message edited by: Laches ]

 

Not stupid mad bomber. Ignorant mad bomber.
I'm not the psychologist, but that he is mad bomber is what I think about him. Do you have the files from his shrinks that say the opposite?

This is what you've said:

This is basically what I've replied:

I've simply tried to tell you that I understand your understanding of my post. Are you suggesting that I've misunderstood you and in "big bad America's fault" plus "thick americans" you've included Canadians?

Upset on support? I'm unsure where did you dig that up. I merely pointed you out the BoM option to report the rules violations.

I don't fill any blanks here. Soros did plenty good things (yes, in my tiny lil' country too, check for Feral Tribune on the internet if you want to learn more) that are definetly not killing of the EU.

Anyway, what type of constructivity do you expect from a person who doesn't care about politics, who doesn't plan to care about politics, and who simply wants to state his opinion?
You don't expect me to quote the whole internet instead of posting a simple short opinion. Or I'm wrong?
Ok, if you want, I can quote you my friends' mails/posts/whatever just like you did, but I really prefer to post *my* opinions on any subject. In that case I feel as if such post was my own kid. Yea, now I guess you'll twist that sentence of mine and say:
EU is gone because europeans equalize posts with kids!

No matter. What you can see so far, I won't quote any magazine and I won't quote any book. Quoting should serve for proving something to someone that is unsure in a matter. Since you're obviously always 100% sure in some matter, there is no need to prove the opposite. In fact, the best option to take in such cases is - to leave the debate. Right?

 

Aye that was the trade thingy I was on about. As for joining it, dunno if they will, but would be better than staying in the EU IMO. The past years there's just been so many new orders for us to do that have detrimental. Still, with the current climate (big bads ol' dubyaa in charge) I think it would be provident to wait, he seems intent on screwing a lot of things up. Time will tell huh?

 

No I dont think Germany will break loose from the EU no matter how severe the public opinion will be, nothing short of a fullscale revolution will be able to do that. The fact is that the whole world is in an economic recess now with slights ups but generally on a low level. Top off the german problem with building up eastgermany it isnt surprising that their economy has gotten alittle slow lately. But I wouldnt say that it has been really bad for a long time afaik it is only about now that the german economy has started to get some rather biggish problems. Atleast it is just now the news here have started to talk about it. But the fact is that the economic problems would probably have been more severe if they hadnt been part of the EU. In todays globalised world no state can afford to stand alone, not even mighty Germany even if they would have an easier time than most other nations. To be able to efficently fight stagflation and inflation you need to band together to gain credibility or be at the mercy of the speculators like Soros around the world. Germany is as has been said also a nation with a big export sector and by being members of the EU they get a huge internal market without any tariffs or customs. Germany may not earn as much on an EU membership as say Portugal but they are still better off in than they would be out. Especially in the long run. And I havent even started on the political aspects of keeping the EU which are even greater and more important than the economical ones.

 

I also doubt that germany will leave the EU how moronic our chancellor however will become (he's bad enough the way he is already). Studying law, european law is my focus, and the transformation and general influence of european into our national law is pretty complete already - I can hardly even imagine *how* germany should leave at all considering all the synergy and interaction of european law with national law.

Additionally, it would be our economical ruin to leave the EU - living in our free marked is the life elixier of our economy. A step back to national markets would not only mean to go backward but be ruinous.

PS: Z-Layrex,

True, true - but mind that the UK got Marshall plan aids too (iirc even more than Germany) - and even though less destroyed than Germany, the british economy quickly was overshadowed by the old enemy. I can understand your frustration however.

[ December 18, 2002, 08:39: Message edited by: Ragusa ]