US Military Leaders knew of prisoner abuse early

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"technically illegal" is great, like "a little pregnant"

So the generals knew early, they knew it was illegal, they did nothing to intervene - until scandal broke - and they got rewarded for doing nothing.

If Bush's Pentagon crew cared a **** about legality or illegality of torture they could have given the press Sanchez' and Miller's heads on spikes easily. Instead, Sanchez got promoted. That underlines that torture of suspects was covered by the pentagon superiors.

So it wasn't about "weekend warriors putting Iraq into jeopardy" like someone wrote it in another thread, but about reckless politicos high-up in the chain of command putting the US effort into jeopardy.

Worse than a crime, a blunder. Another blunder.

 

Err, how about a link Ragusa?

And if it's true, which I don't doubt, I am not suprised. Frankly, I would be suprised if it is not true.

 

Oh, hehe, there you are:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A23372-2004Nov30?language=printer

Dialup makes me hasty. Sorry.

 

Yes I am also not surprised. I think there is a lot more reports to come.

 

[Sarcasm] Who would have guessed? [/Sarcasm]

Excuse me while I curl up in a fetal position.

 

The real issue here is who knew about it. Sanchez evidently reported this up the chain of command -- I do not believe he was in charge of the prisons. The military is very segmented -- you cannot cross command boundries and tell someone what to do.

The reporter uses terms like "US Generals" and "US milirary leaders" because he simply hasn't done his homework and wants to say something (and he succeeds at fooling the naive -- that's the way the American press operates). Who those US Generals and leaders were is very important.

 

Support your troops! http://www.englanddefensefund.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse

The link above states that more additional photos/videos are unreleased as they are "unfit for public viewing"

More photos; reactions by U.S. Leaders
Senator Lindsey Graham (Republican, South Carolina) has been quoted as saying, "The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here," after hearing testimony from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Members of the Senate reviewed photographs supplied by the Defense Department which have not been released to the public. They note that in addition to the abuses mentioned, some of the U.S. military guards have sex in front of the prisoners.

"It was pretty disgusting, not what you'd expect from Americans," said Senator Norm Coleman.

"I don't know how the hell these people got into our army," said Colorado Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell. [15] ( http://breaking.examiner.ie/2004/05/13/story147437.html )

But Senator James Inhofe, Republican member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, felt that the events did not deserve moral outrage. "I'm probably not the only one up at this table that is more outraged by the outrage than we are by the treatment," the Senator said during a hearing on the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. "They are not there for traffic violations. If they're in cell block 1A or 1B, these prisoners — they're murderers, they're terrorists, they're insurgents. Many of them probably have American blood on their hands. And here we're so concerned about the treatment of those individuals." However, the internal Army report by Maj. Gen. Ryder challenged this by stating that some Iraqis were held for long periods simply because they had expressed "displeasure or ill will" toward U.S. forces.

Defense Secretary Rumsfeld tried to avoid the question of whether U.S. soldiers had engaged in torture. He stated, "What has been charged so far is abuse, which I believe technically is different from torture. I'm not going to address the 'torture' word." (quoted in "What's in a Word? Torture," ( http://nytimes.com/2004/05/23/opinion/23HOCH.html ) by Adam Hochschild, New York Times, May 23, 2004).

[Fixed the links.] -Tal

[ December 01, 2004, 22:08: Message edited by: Taluntain ]

 

Of course they dont care! The politicians in contrast to the people who support them go into thingsl like this with open eyes, they knew they would do this and they had no problem with it.

 

They must have some real winners for politicians in Sweden....

 

Well, atleast the Swedish ones figured out 200 years ago that war is bad and should be avoided at almost any cost. How this revelation can keep on escaping people is beyond me.

 

Joacqin, when you say "they" don't care, which "they" are you refering to?

 

/me dons Devil's Advocate Hat & Flame Suit

I think this post might eventually need a disclaimer as well...

I am completely unsurprised by this. Sure, I didn't know/think it was going on, but I'm not shocked. As appalling as the abuses have been, I can understand the rationality for doing it, and for why it was conveniently ignored. That's not to say I condone or support it, only that it makes sense.

As Inhofe puts it, these people are identified murderers, insurgents, etc (the BS level of that statement is not lost on me, folks), and therefore their treatment is justifiable on the grounds of intelligence and operational (and maybe national) security. The need to break prisoners mentally before interrogation is a well-understood aspect of "Tactical Interrogation" or whatever euphemism you want to use for torture. I don't believe that the abuses at Abu Ghraib are justifiable from that perspective - certainly not if they involve rape and murder - but the use of mental and physical weapons against detainees potentially possessing useful information can be defended, provided it does not become gratuitous.

The upshot: War is a dirty, vicious business, and you need to take every advantage you can, however you can - particularly if it's on "their" territory and using guerilla tactics. Politicians care less about human rights abuses than they do about looking good in the polls, or taking an ethical stand, or constraining their military. Why create more problems when you don't have to - especially if the only victims will be your enemies and you can just scapegoat off some low-level military personnel even if the story does break? Eventually your own people will stop caring about that and worry about how the rising debt will affect their mortgage.

Enemy prisoners being abused by OUR troops? Sure, leave it with me and I'll get back to you...

 

Well just remember that most of the people in Abu Ghraib were innocents. Even if they were not then using force, rape, mental abuse etc is still WRONG.

 

@AMaster, they, you know! *They*! The international conspiracy which controls the universe!

I thought it was pretty clear which they I meant, the politicians, the leadership, both civilian and military. *They* knew very well what is involved in warfare.

 

As disgusting as the reports about Abu Ghraib may have been - I wasnt surprised the least bit. Nor am I the least bit shocked by this here. Sad, no? As sad as the fact that there was not a single one among the fellow western allies who cried out: "This cannot be!!"
Should make you think. It wont, I know.

The claims for ignorance are all the more amusing. And, again, sad. There isnt even enough backbone to accept their failure! No, the ones who have to follow orders are blamed. I see this as hiding. Like cowards would do.
Without confessing there can be no forgiving - so the anger and resentment against the US will continue to grow and fester.

I wonder just how I should make a distinction between these advocats of human rights and Hussein's regime. They torture for a good cause? sssssh The death of people while in the tender care of the US is sickening me.

What I found surprising was that a few days after the pictures of the abused prisoners were out in the public, thousands of iraqi detainees were released. I have had little doubts that the US wouldnt stand up to its ideals when it comes to potential enemies as the glorifying of their nation is nothing but annoying propaganda. However, I would not have thought that people who are obviously innocent of any crime are being held captive. Seems like my regard for our american friends was still too high.

Perhaps the Americans are quite eager to stop caring. But I doubt that the rest of the world will forget this. Whatever "fine" justifications the apologists may hold against critics for starting a war with all its attrocities - this was yet another nail to the coffin in which your reputation rests.
Not that it will hinder the US to state that they are: Simply the Best. Hah.

 

Check out this site Dendri - http://www.englanddefensefund.com/ it should show you how much people care for the abused Iraqi's. Her lover even received a heroes welcome home in his small P.A. town.

I guess Lynnie was told to have sex with Charles Graner in front of prisoners and she was only **following** orders.

I care and I have not forgotten. Its things like the prison abuses that recruit insurgents/terrorists -whatever they are labelled today.

Taguba's report cited numerous examples of inmate abuse, including:

Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet.
Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees.
Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing.
Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time.
Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's underwear.
Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate while being photographed and videotaped.
Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them.
Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture.
Writing "I am a Rapest" [sic] on the leg of a detainee alleged to have raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked.
Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee's neck and having a female soldier pose for a picture.
A male MP guard raping a female detainee.
Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees and MPs posing with cheerful looks.
Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees.
Threatening detainees with a loaded 9mm pistol.
Pouring cold water on naked detainees.
Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair.
Threatening male detainees with rape.
Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell.
Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.
Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting and severely injuring a detainee.

 

I'm always amused to see judgements on an entire people being based on the criminal actions of a few. And saddened.

 

Yeah, isnt it sad. We really all should understand that among the arabs just among everyone there are all kinds of people.

 

Wait, wait, wait. So what you're saying isn't that they knew about the specific abuses, but that they knew abuses would take place, because that's what happens in war?

If that's not what you meant, please clarify