1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

US plane blowing up an UK convoy footage.

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by Sydax, Feb 6, 2007.

  1. Sydax Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2003
    Messages:
    1,166
    Likes Received:
    0
    This happened in 2003 in Iraq. Somehow, The Sun newspaper got a copy of the video, so now the UK wants that video. How a newspaper got hands on that?
    How come that UK didn't realised that it was an US plane who blew up the convoy? Or is that just now, that a newspaper made public what happened, all the sudden UK is interested in what happened?
    Link

    [ February 13, 2007, 14:54: Message edited by: Taluntain ]
     
  2. DarkStrider

    DarkStrider I've seen the future and it has seen me Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    4,321
    Likes Received:
    2
    No, Sydax you have it wrong we've known all along that the americans killed the convoy but it was classified by the military and governments as "friendly fire" i.e. an accident. There is an inquest into their deaths going on, the US has up till now refused to release the video footage, somehow the Sun gas fot a copy which casts doubt on the "friendly fire" theory, the family of one the dead wants Justice, ie the pilots to stand trial.
     
  3. Erod Gems: 14/31
    Latest gem: Chrysoberyl


    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 21, 2005
    Messages:
    652
    Likes Received:
    3
    How does that cast doubt on the friendly fire theory? According to the transcript, the pilots were told that there were no friendlies in the area before the attack, only after the first attack was there new information regarding any friendlies. Seems like a clear situation to me. The boy knew the risks well enough when he signed up.
     
  4. The Shaman Gems: 28/31
    Latest gem: Star Sapphire


    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,831
    Likes Received:
    54
    I doubt that they tell them "Well, the enemy may kill you and, believe it or not, so can our allies." That can't be good for the morale.
     
  5. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2000
    Messages:
    10,140
    Media:
    63
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    Considering their performance it could hardly have been the Iraqi air force.

    No seriously, the Bush men are obscessive about US troops, or horrors, they themselves, being held accountable. For some comprehensible reasons. And for some sinister reasons. They are stonewalling because of that. They fear 'political instrumentalisation' of such cases. And of course, see inferior legal standards everywhere else, like at the ICC. Probably that's why they set up the Gitmo tribunal the way they did. To set a shining example.

    The accident is an example for how important visual ID of a target is. An A-10 usually can do that, an AV-8B probably, too. F-15, F-16, F-18 are simply too fast. And when you use stand-off weapons you're just too far away to see what you're really hitting. The curse of relying on high-tech. And they you have an Alliance and the issue of communication.

    [ February 07, 2007, 01:19: Message edited by: Ragusa ]
     
  6. Dinsdale Gems: 13/31
    Latest gem: Ziose


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    583
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    8
    Erod's right on this. I don't see how it casts any doubt at all on what was apparently nothing but a terrible accident. Friendly fire casaulties are an unfortunate reality on the battlefield.
     
  7. Abomination Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2003
    Messages:
    2,375
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have no idea even how anyone could comprehend America intentionally attacking an UN convoy. There are no advantages, the pilot would have to be one seriously nefarious individual and accidents DO happen.

    Certainly everyone (well, mostly everyone) mourns the loss of the UN forces and wishes such a thing never happened but it's a warzone. Friendly fire has been in every war known to man.

    The pilot made an error. He did not intend to kill those UN forces. Placing him on trial will do nothing constructive save bring some sense of vengence to the families of the people who were killed.
     
  8. Rawgrim Gems: 21/31
    Latest gem: Pearl


    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,365
    Likes Received:
    27
    It was an accident plain and simple.
     
  9. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    If he followed procedures, he has nothing to fear from a trial. If he did not, he does.

    I don't see the problem.
     
  10. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2000
    Messages:
    10,140
    Media:
    63
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    Abo,
    Of course a fighter jock wants to kill what he's shooting at, get real. He only didn't know what he was hitting.
     
  11. Cúchulainn Gems: 28/31
    Latest gem: Star Sapphire


    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,956
    Likes Received:
    1
    When you go hunting in the US you have it drilled in your head that you should be sure of your target before firing. Surely stricter policies should apply to the military?

    Wonder what happened to this one.

    and

    The Iraqi's more or less had wheelie bins for tanks, so its a strange mistake to make.

    [ February 07, 2007, 09:51: Message edited by: Cúchulainn ]
     
  12. Daie d'Malkin

    Daie d'Malkin Shoulda gone to Specsavers

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2002
    Messages:
    2,636
    Likes Received:
    1
    'Don't worry, you're quite safe. You're not wearing COALITION uniforms!'

     
  13. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2000
    Messages:
    10,140
    Media:
    63
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    Well, cosidering how much the US rely on air power one has to say such incidents are pretty rare when compared the number of sorties flown, to allied troops that is.

    The aiming generously part applied to civvies is much more frequent, especially in urban combat. It may not be the intent, to miss or hit bystanders, but that's somewhat beside the point (literally) for those hit instead of or with the intended target. I mean, the Marines used artillery barrages in Fallujah. Not exactly a discriminate weapon. Just like airstrikes using ordnance like a 908kg Mk.84 bomb.

    Average hit probability of such a thing under perfect conditions is within 40 feet of programmed target. Blast and heat radius is 110 feet, fragmentation radius 3000 feet. That means anyone within a half mile of such a perfectly delivered munition would be at risk. As said, this assumes that all goes well and does not even allow for errors such as target location, weather, jamming, pilot, GPS, mapping, intelligence errors.

    'Surgical' is a very euphemistic term. Why you hear much less of that than of the Brits killed is because the Brits as allies have a lobby.
     
  14. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
  15. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2000
    Messages:
    10,140
    Media:
    63
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    What I don't get is that the silhouette of the Scimitar is unique. Well, from the ground at least.

    Seems to me that the pilots believed to be in a free fire zone, where everything was supposed to be hostile, and the Brits were engaged as a 'target of opportunity'. It seems, that in a free fire zone the suspicion of hostility and fitting the general target pattern justifies an attack -- fire first, ask questions later. That's the whole point of a free fire zone, to eleminate the need for elaborate target identification.

    To work it calls for close coordination between ground forces and the air force. The blue on blues hitting allies are easily explained by the likely coordination and communication gaps. The A-10s had most likely never trained with the British. There probably were no established procedures, and no US air force compatible radio with the Brits.
    One thing I heared from a German naval officer serving in the Indian Ocean in a JOINT NATO-US task force was that he thought NATO would have made the US Navy standardise with NATO. Not true. NATO is just a small bit of the US armed forces world. The units he had to cooperate with were from the pacific and initially not NATO compatible. They eventually improvised a way around it. Means the US have at least two communication standards in their fleet. In Germany they just had to scuttle a project that was aimed on generating full interoperability between Army, Navy and Air Force for the hip 'JOINT' missions. It failed. Seems it is not at all easy.

    There was that old joke in the Army about the artillery: 'Artillery knows neither friend nor foe, only inviting targets!' I guess that goes to the flyboys doubly. Artillermen have less ego, too. Airheads think they're god. And probably the carrier pilots in the Navy are worse. The only thing still worse would then be an astronaut.

    EDIT: Good comment from the guadian:
    He's absolutely right. What the US government did afterwards is something else entirely./EDIT

    [ February 08, 2007, 12:42: Message edited by: Ragusa ]
     
  16. Barmy Army

    Barmy Army Simple mind, simple pleasures... Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    May 26, 2003
    Messages:
    6,586
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    162
    Too many of these 'accidents' from American bombers for my liking. Anyone got figures on how many 'allied' soldiers have been killed by the Yanks fooking up? Too trigger happy, that's their problem, always has been.
     
  17. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    OTOH, things are much better now than they were, say, in WWII.

    This time around, you don't get American ground pounders saying things like "if it flies, it dies" and shooting at anything in the air after the umpteenth bombing by 'friendly' aircraft.
     
  18. Sydax Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2003
    Messages:
    1,166
    Likes Received:
    0
    @Darkstrider: the article I read was misleading. It is in Spanish and says almost what I wrote. My English isn't too good so I didn't read everything in the English link, so is my mistake for not dig more on the news.

    But, I still don't understand this 'US justice' for themselves. An US soldier can do whatever he likes around the world and he won't get a trial by, let's say, killing some innocent people, let's say, by mistake. In 2003 a tank blew the Palestinian Hotel killing an Ukranian journalist and a Spaniard cameraman. ( http://www.counterpunch.org/hollander01082004.html )
    US decide if their soldiers stand trial in the USA and can't be judged in other countries, but if John Doe from X country kills an American, US can ask for for John Doe to stand trial in America?
    I know I probably didn't express right, and I hope you get the idea.
     
  19. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    I have to agree with others that this was a horrible accident. The pilots asked if their were friendlies in the area, they got a message back that there wasn't, and they attacked. Obviously, there was no intent to fire on allied vehicles. The one pilot was crying at the end for God's sake.
     
  20. Cúchulainn Gems: 28/31
    Latest gem: Star Sapphire


    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,956
    Likes Received:
    1
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.