Violence in Hockey.

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I swear we need an alley behind the Colosseum for all the **** that's going on in sports these days.

There's been considerable debate over the place of fighting in professional hockey. It's been ignited recently after an on ice incident in Hamilton last month.

In the middle of December, during a Senior A league game, Whitby Dunlops defenseman, Don Sanderson was involved in his fight. His helmet either twisted or dislodged during the fight, and his head struck the ice. He seemed fine as he left the ice to head for the locker room, where he collapsed and entered a coma. He passed away January 1.

This has prompted more calls for fighting to be removed from the game. While I would be sickened to see Sanderson's face on a standard held up on a march on the CBC studios in search of Don Cherry's head, I also feel that in light of this tragedy (acknowledged almost universally as a fluke), the role of fighting in the game DOES need to be looked at.

First, consider that the leage where Sanderson played already attaches a Game Misconduct to the initial fighting major that each participant receives. Sanderson was in his fifth fight that night in the 12th game of the season, and his opponent was in his third fight in the previous five games. This leads me to the conclusion that fighting cannot be truly eliminated, but can it be reduced?

I believe it can be reduced. The Defending Stanley Cup champions, the Detroit Red Wings were 30th among 30 NHL teams in fighting majors. They simply pack so much skill on the team that they have no room on the roster for a true heavyweight, or goon. They want players to have the skill to justify more than 5 or 6 minuted of ice time in the game. They have consistently delivered multi-round playoff performances, and have won 4 Stanley Cups in the last 12 years. It is my belief that if there was a greater concentration of skill players available, then more teams would conclude, as the Red Wings have, that they don't have room for a pugilist. This would cut down on the fighting, even if it doesn't eliminate it entirely.

And the NHL has a golden opportunity to do this. Three Franchises are in serious peril of going bankrupt. If the league contracted from 30 teams to 24, and a dispersal draft were held to distribute the players and prospects of the six eliminated teams, then many more teams would not have enough roster space for the goons, requiring players to have a higher degree of skill if they want to play at the NHL level. It wouldn't eliminate fighting, but it would reduce the pre-meditated fights by a vast margin.

Radio host Bob McCown, a noted opponent of goons in Hockey, claims this won't work, claiming that teams will still employ fighting as a strategy, and will still find a place for these goons at the expense of better players. Again, I point to the Detroit Red Wings. They seem to be doing quite well without a true heavyweight, and they've had some rough rivalries over the last 12 years too.

It's worth a shot. But even if someone things of Don Sanderson and decides against a fight, then is that not a step in the right direction? Don't get me wrong, I love a good hockey fight, but I think we can do without the pre-meditated battles between guys that are only there for one reason--to beat the crap out of each other.

 

I'm no sports expert. Don't get me wrong -- I'm in shape. Round is a shape!

OK, enough stupidity. It is my understanding that fighting does not really exist in other Morth American sports leagues in the way that it does in the NHL -- fights are severely punished, yes? I am of the humble opinion that if there were serious penalties -- more serious than a 10 minute game misconduct, even -- that fighting would stop in the NHL. Other leagues seem to get by just fine without it. Besides, and please don't be offended if you are a sports person, but dumb-ass jocks need to learn to control their tempers instead of being told they have the right to solve their problems with their dumb-ass jock fists.

 

I think that fighting in NHL has already decreased to nearly acceptable level. Quick browsing through current and former seasons stats shows that penalty minutes have gone down, although this change hasn't been very fast. Current season is past its halfway mark and the penalty leader O'Brien has only 126 PIM, which would mean roughly 220-230 PIM for whole season. Probably 5-6 guys in the whole league will go over 200 minutes. If we go back, say 10 years to 1998-1999, there where 10 players with 200+ PIM. In 1997-1998 the 200+ club had 19 members; Brashear had whopping 372 minutes and Domi 365! Of course penalty minutes and fights don't go neatly hand in hand, for example O'Brien hasn't thrown his gloves off that often.

Another change has IMO happened in the roles and skills of the enforcers. Ten years back there where a lot of goons who scored less than 10 points in a season, and the game was lot slower then - those guys couldn't do anything else besides beating each other. Nowadays most tough players can actually play if needed - although some exceptions exist. I think that hockey today is so fast-paced and competetive that teams just can't afford having many, if any, rubber-ankled guys in their roster.

It's nice to watch fast and skilled players, but this season Detroit has gone over the limit: every player has less penalty minutes than games played - that is just so wrong!

 

Fighting has always been a part of the NHL. This is in part because the penalties are relatively insignificant – rather than being kicked out of the game, all they get is 5 minutes in the penalty box, plus additional penalties for the instigator.

Fighting became more significant when the NHL started to expand. More teams meant more positions to fill, and with a talent pool that didn’t keep pace, less skilled players were brought in; those players relied on toughness rather than talent. This also created problems for skilled players, who needed some form of protection, and thus “enforcers” became important.

I think part of the problem is that, unlike most other major sports, hockey players aren’t playing all the time – they rotate shifts. Therefore, individually, they more easily replaced, because there are several number of players with a similar skill level on the bench who can take their place (particularly in the case of those who are inclined to fight). In baseball, football and basketball, the same players are usually playing, and thus there is less depth at each position than there is in hockey. Therefore, there is more incentive in those other sports to avoid being ejected from a game, as players are less easily replaced.

The bottom line, though, is that fighting is so ingrained as a part of hockey (in North America, at least) that I don’t know how it can be eliminated. In the NHL, the League sets the rules, but the League is run by the Board of Governors which is made up of representatives from the various teams. Those teams that rely on fighting are obviously going to oppose tougher penalties, so not much change is likely to happen from that end. The only real way fighting will be eliminated is if the fans demand stiffer penalties, but let’s be honest – North American hockey fans love a good fight. Yes, they want to see mostly talent, but to many of them, an occasional fight helps to spice things up.

 

Currently in the NHL, Fighting is a 5 minute major penalty. Any misconducts are optional. If the Officials decide that one player has gone out of his way to instigate the fight, that player is assessed a 2 minute minor penalty and at least a 10 minute misconduct above and beyond that 5 minute major.

They need to be able to do more than solve problems with their dumb ass jock fists if they want to play professional hockey. Until more coaches and general managers accept this, the trend will not go away. I'm not against having players that can fight, but I also want that player to be capable of playing 10 to 12 minutes a game or more if he's a forward, and 15 to 18 minutes a game if he's a defenseman. I don't think the game is served by goons that are there for only their fists...

It dipped after the Lockout, but it has been rising again. But that dip has illustrated my point about a higher skill level reducing the occurance of fighting. Increase the skill and technique, you decrease the fighting...

That's the model every team should be looking at. Don't get me wrong, I will always love my Leafs, but Detroit packs so much skill that they don't have room for an enforcer. They have a coach that instills an effective system that works both offensively and defensively. I don't mind a Middleweight, who can fight when called on, but his primary role is something other than pugilism.

In the Senior A league where Sanderson played, a Fighting major came with an automatic Game Misconduct. This was Sanderson's fifth fight of the season (12th game), and his oppnent was in his third fight in the last three games. While I don't think an automatic Game Misconduct will eliminate fighting, it may reduce it. Also, in the NHL, there is a limit to how many game misconducts you can receive in a season before suspensions kick in. These suspensions escalate with every further game misconduct beyond that threshold...

Which brings us back to the idea I had about contraction of the league, back to 24 teams. With a dispersal draft of all contracted players, RFA, Minor league players and other prospects still in Major Junior, Europe or College hockey, that would likely net 10 to 15 more assets for each team. This would push the goons off the rosters in favour of more skilled players. I believe this would reduce the fighting simply by making the guy that falls into the "enforcer" role more valuable to the team and thus it would be less desirable to see them in the penalty box for 5 minutes or more.

Exactly my position. But I have stated that as the average talent level increases, the frequency of fighting will decrease...

 

Look, it is my understanding that professional football players (NFL) get through most games without fighting. a fight in that league is dealt with harshly. Ditto for basketball. Ditto for baseball. Fights still do occur, of course, in these sports, but they are not nearly as common, AFAIK. Why is that?

My theory is that it simply isn't tolerated in those leagues. If the toleration for this sort of nonsense goes down, then the behaviour will dwindle. If your career or a significant fine is on the line, even the stupidest prick of a jock will control his urges -- I highly doubt that the players of those other sports are any more self-controlled than the hockey players. Right now, the hockey players know they can get away with it.

Speaking of expansion, I am also of the belief that if the NHL wants to expand its fan base, it must appeal to new fans while keeping the old. They've done some really stupid things to do that (the trail on the puck that one network tried a few years ago srpings to mind) but I think that only the most die-hard psychopath would really mind a major reduction in the number of fights.

 

You are correct that they are much less frequent in football and baseball, and are further correct that the reason for this is the punishment is severe. In the NFL (football), if you throw a punch - even if you miss - it's an automatic ejection from the game. In the rare instances where it's really a fight (not just one guy taking a swing at a guy and then having them separated) the league usually follows up with a two-game suspension. Keep in mind that there are only 16 games in a standard football season, so a 2 game suspension is 1/8 of the season. When you are suspended you also forfeit your game check for the games missed, so they are also losing 1/8 of their annual salary. So it's the equivalent of getting a 10 game suspension without pay in hockey. Same thing for baseball - you get ejected from the game and a suspension without pay for one or more games.

 

I must admit that I haven't followed NHL so closely in the past few years: I'm sure that fights have decreased in past ten years, but I don't know that much what has happened in the last few seasons.

I think Detroits current (and to some extent, previous) success is very closely related to their European style of play; this season about 2/3 of Wings players are European. It seems to work great, but I kinda wish that they would have at least few tougher players. Ok, McCarty and Chelios are still in the roster but their tough guy-years are looong gone (their combined age is 82!). It's actually quite interesting that an Original Six team with such a long tradition of great enforcers rely almost totally on skilled European-style players. I guess their fans like regular Stanley Cups better than regural fisticuffs. But I bet some of them miss those classic (and bloody) Colorado vs. Detroit matches.

 

Technically, fighting is not tolerated. It is punished with a 5 minute major penalty. In the league where Sanderson played, there was an automatic ejection to go with a fight. Fighting is mentioned in the rulebook not because it's allowed, but because the officials need to be prepared to deal with the situation that has the potential to come up in the course of the game. While I believe that adding a game misconduct to the major would reduce the fights (and eventually weed out the thugs), it won't eliminate it entirely.

Increasing the skill level among the players that make it to the NHL would do that. It's been suggested that the Phoenix Coyotes will go bankrupt at teh end of the season. Nashville and Tampa might not be far off that point. It may not be that hard to find three more teams that are losing obscene amounts of money. If the league uses the excuse of the economy to contract to 24 teams, the skill players that the 6 teams that we're losing will be redistributed, increasing the skill level on the remaining 24 teams.

The term I hear here in Canada is "middle weight". These are players with the skill set to play 12 to 15 minutes a night (third and fourth line players) that can fight when needed. This is in contrast to the "heavy weight" who plays 5 minutes a night and is there primarily to fight. I'm also not opposed to first line players that will duke it out when the need arises. Wendel Clark, Gordie Howe, Bobby Clarke and Jarome Iginla are great examples of this. They were the top players on the team, but they still fought when they needed to.

 

While this goes a bit astray, I am of the humble opinion that the NHL has spread its butt cheeks really, really thin. They expanded too quickly and now look at the mess they're in. I say losing a few of the teams is a good idea that can only help the league.

 

Yeah, and it looks like 4 to 6 of Gary Bettman's footprint teams could be the ones throwing the keys on the table at the end of the season...

 

Here's an excerpt from a piece by a columnist in a local Edmonton paper. His name is Yukon Jack and the title of every column is "My Big Yap." I don't agree with him 100% but he is pretty funny. I particularly liked the "ace of cakes" bit.

 

But what's the alternative? Sean Avery's mouth? There has to be a happy medium...

 

Wow, this is my first post in about a year or two... Time flies when your having no fun working too much...

First order of business, bump up this thread.

While I agree with most of what has been said, there is bigger issue concerning fights. Good ways to reduce fighting have been proposed in the thread, but you can never eliminate fighting without making big changes amongst referee philosophy (including the head of the beast, Colin Campbell). I beleive the majority of fights are retaliations on a player for improper behavior (touching the goalie, harassing a non-fighter, etc.). If the referees were to appropriatly call penalties, than a lot of players would not feel the obligation to defend a teamate or to act as a policeman.

To me, the officiating in hockey is the worst of all professional sports (well, exept the WWE). You clean that up, you clean the sport up.

 

There is always football/soccer. That, my friend has more. Can you see it, one referee for a pitch 115 meters long an no video-rerun what so ever. Many elbowing, tripping and holding penalties are not called.

The fighting however is strangely left out.

 

Why would they need to fight, the fans take care of that...