What's better in ToB - pure mage or mc fighter-mage ?

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I'm a little curious about this since I originally started to play one in BG-2 (but found myself playing BG-1 again).

Anyway: Looking at the spellcasting slots at the x-cap both looked pretty similar (except for some high level spells after level-5.

mc fighter-mage:
lvl-6 spells: 4
lvl-7 spells: 3
lvl-8 spells: 3
lvl-9 spells: 2

pure mage:
lvl-6 spells: 5
lvl-7 spells: 5
lvl-8 spells: 5
lvl-9 spells: 5

So the mc fighter-mage is just 9 spells late (yep, some powerful .... . So what I am curious about is if you think that ToB changed the advantages and power ballance in favour of mc chars.
Any opinions ?

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited October 08, 2001).]

 

Well, that's not necessarily an accurate comparision. My experience with ToB is that if you have a full sized party you don't get much beyond 5.5 to 6 mil exp in the normal course of play. So your multiclass wizard is only going to end up around 17 or 18th level. BG pretty much follows the standard PnP progression: spell casting multis are clearly better up to around lvl 10 or so, then rapidly fall behind. They are clearly weaker by the high teens much less the levels you get in ToB. [Of course, duals rock in CRPGs, while they are pretty rare in PnP since you don't gain a half a dozen levels a session.]

I think you should have at least one single class mage (Imoen, Nalia, Edwin, or a PC) if playing party style. My personal choice is to assign that role to an NPC and get a more versatile PC (bard or multi/dual type of some sort).

If you are soloing or going with a very small party, I'd think you would find the F/M the better choice. Since your group is so small, you actually will get to the cap. You don't gain all that much by being lvl 30 instead of lvl 22 or so, IMHO. I certainly think the ability to fight effectively is more valuable than the extra couple spells.

Enough rambling for now.

Aloha
Vormaerin

 

Of course I just told half the truth Yes, the x-cap is the major problem - for the largest part of the game the pure or dc mage will be superior in number and level of spells.

Anyway, I think you can somewhat compensate this with the high level bonus spells and the mage rings (the same ones the pure mage receives as well
However, I actually try to get familiar with the mc fighter-mage but I fear I will use her as a back-up char for combat spellcasting and minor melee (due to the relatively weak AC).

My first frontline experiences with him were sobering as a result of bad AC and low hitpoints.
I'm curious about some gaming experience with this class since I rarely heared of people playing it in ToB.

 

Pure mage. You can always have another tank in your party and any kind of mage should concentrate on what they do: cast spells.

 

conserve your spells though if you're a pure mage - the last thing you want is to take on demogorgon wielding a stick after wasting all your spells =)

 

Well, "good" AC is pretty hard to come by in ToB. Seems most critters can pretty much nail you anyway. I think the best armor you can get for a F/M is the Aslyferund Elven Chain (which is AC0) which isn't really much worse than the full plates (generally AC-2). You can use any shield/helm/whatever that you want without bothering your spellcasting.

Fighter-mages (like their close kin, the bard) generally rely on their spell support for boosting their combat. Stoneskin, Protection from Magical Weapons, Improved Invisibility, Mirror Image, Blur, FireShield, Tenser's Transformation, etc all make a huge difference in combat. With the Amulet of Power, you can get off most combat spells pretty damn fast (like speed 0 or 1). If you are really pissed off, you can TimeStop and unleash all your Greater Whirlwinds on the baddies.

Aloha
Vormaerin

 

Alyfserund's chainmail is *the* chain of choice for a fighter-mage (excluding drow stuff) and *the* reason why I would never use an mc fighter-mage as a main char in ToB.

Since a main char gets immunity from normal weapons as a freebie from his tears of Bhaal the special abilities of this item would be wasted on a main char. Just cast protection from magical weapons and the melee enemies cannot harm you any longer

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited October 09, 2001).]

 

I suppose that's a consideration if you play Multiplayer by yourself (I never have, so I didn't think about it). However, in a single player game there really isn't anyone else to use the armor except Haer'Dalis. I guess Imoen or Nalia could wear it instead of the Robes of the Archmagi. Besides, how many normal weapons do you actually face in ToB? The fight at the Oasis, maybe? I can't think of any others.

Aloha
Vormaerin

 

I ended up giving it to Aerie instead since I took a Kensai/Mage. And saved her life in Yaga Shura's battle. She was able to stand back and cast without being interupted from those pesky foot soldiers of Yaga's. Imoen wasn't so lucky until she got off an improved mantle.

 

I tried a DC F/M(currently level 13/20), and I switched armors between the Alslyterund +5, and the robe of vecna. (I was soloing)I exported a fighter out of BG1

 

Well, DC is a totally different story. In CRPGs, dual classing is much, much stronger than any single class or multiclass option. You get all (or nearly all) of the power of a single class character plus whatever benefits you get from your first class. There is really no downside to dual classing in a game like BG2 unless you are really keen to play a non human character.

Aloha
Vormaerin

 

Well, my point is that I think that the implementation of the high-level abilities in BG-2 ToB has changed exactly this. I daresay that now, in ToB, mc is stronger than dc.

A dc char is, due to total change of his class, basically an improved mage with better combat abilities. Oh yes, he can have grandmastery - sure.

BUT: BG-2 dos not have the extra attack for grandmastery - so you'd get along splendidly with **. If damage or THACO is too low - get yourself a strength girdle. Grandmastery is imo overestimated, nontheless a question of status.
An mc char can use the special fighter abilities (like greater deathblow or magic resistance) a dc char can't get. Your fighter skills improve continuously so you'll end up as a lvl-24 fighter in the end.

So when you want to compare mc or dc fighter-mages it turns out to become a discussion about the number of spells, so we are back again, where this topic started

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited October 11, 2001).]

 

Hmmm, I'm not so sure the high level ability issue actually matters that much. Really all that's happening with a MC character is that you are trading the high level mage abilities for the high level fighter ones. In 'normal' party play, a MC mage isn't going to be able to use the special spells until the very end, if at all.

Besides, Grandmastery isn't the big deal with dual vs mult fighters: its the hp. A MC fighter-mage will have noticably fewer hp than a dual Fighter-mage.

Aloha
Vormaerin

[This message has been edited by Vormaerin (edited October 11, 2001).]

 

I think better versions of the more powerful multi class combos would be the cleric(druid)/fighter class and the fighter/thief class. I have to agree that the mc fighter/mage isn't that great. The class can definately fight better than the DC version, but you are giving up under normal ToB conditions your high level mage spells until just before you fight Amellisan, if you even get them at all. Now that's alot to sacrifice for a better fighter. However, with the multi class fighter/divine caster combos, you get bother high level effects, and in the end truly come out IMO with a more powerful class than the DC version. I also think the multiclass thief is better than almost most DC combos except one: fighter D swashbuckler. That turned out to be an excellent DC, except for the lack of backstab.

 

Yes, I agree. Fighter/thieves and Fighter/Clerics are noticably stronger than the dual versions in ToB and at least as good in SoA (the lost 7th lvl cleric spells aren't *that* impressive, after all). I know that Sir Anomen would very much liked to have more fighter levels and fighter abilities by the end of ToB. He had all the Quest spells and most of the cleric levels weren't adding anything of note. On the other hand, Jaheira really wished she was a dual fighter-druid since she ended up stuck at 14th lvl for the entire expansion.

Aloha
Vormaerin

 

I don't know. I liked the multi fighter/druid I had running in my ToB game. She only ended up with two level 7 spell slots (thank god for that druid ring), but she had all the quest spells and had a few of the fighter special abilities. Now it would have been nicer to see the specific druid high level abilites to be sure, but then I really have the stupid druid level up scheme bioware used for that. But all in all, I didn't mind my fighter/druid. She was powerful enough for me, and I'd say more powerful than her dual class counterpart.

 

I love fighter mages (especially when they get time stop ) but they are not neccesary, you really HAVE to have a pure mage (or better a sorcerer) or maybe a dual like Nalia or Imoen. A fighter/ mage multi class won't get lv9 spells until they hit 6 000 000 exp which is pretty high. A fighter/ mage is just a fighter with spells and should not be used for your main mage, their spells are just to make them better fighters.

Cheers, Void.

[This message has been edited by void (edited October 12, 2001).]

 

Oh, Jaheira continued to be pretty effective throughout the game despite the complete halt to druid advancement. But there is such a HUGE difference between 14th and 15th level in all aspects it would have been nice to see. :Hmmm: But as a dual she wouldn't have had all those fighter feats, so that could have hurt bad.

I also wish there were some better one handed weapon choices for her in ToB.

Heh, my "line" in ToB consisted of Mazzy, Sir Anomen, Jaheira, and my bard. Oh, did I mention Mazzy? Jan and Imoen rounded out the team.

Aloha
Vormaerin

 

The thing to bear in mind here is that a mc fighter/mage can be used effectively as a fighter but simply doesn't have enough higher level spells to be used effectively as a mage. So you're still going to need a mage standing behind him.

The fighter/mage makes an excellent dual-weilding no.2 frontline warrior though (with a barbarian or paladin in front of/next to him). Spells (as someone mentioned above) like stoneskin, fireshied, blur, etc can make up for his weaker AC quite easily. He doesn't need range weapons 'cause he can cast spells if your main mage needs to cast area of effect attacks.

The dual-class option whould call for a lvl 11-13 mage (need a couple of stoneskins and fireshields at least) becoming a fighter. This takes a while to get the mage class active again if you look at the comparative XP tables but you can wear armour in the meanwhile.

 

Actually my current mc fighter mage is from BG-1 so she enjoys the advantage of having str-19 rather thn 18/43 so I have plenty of slots free for useful equipment like girdle of inertial barrier. I actually have Edwin as my main mage and I will trade him for Imoen when I come to spellhold. Currently she is lifesaver and melee core (with AC -43 ) for my archer main char.

Looking at Edwins spellcasting ability she looks really *poor*, but anyway, she can deal out some substantial damage. Since I want to keep her AC low I have the problem (she has the Alibakar elven chain) to need to have a slot for her ring/ amulet/ cloak of protection to keep my AC and saving throws low (quite simple: I cannot fight or cast spells when stunned).

The improved bladesinger chain will solve some of my problems for ToB but it is pretty away and anyway, AC remains to be my second concern however, protective spells help a lot to improve melee effectiveness But I think that while doing all the quests available (including the ust-natha massacre ) I will collect plenty of xp - enough to gain suficient mage levels. This and the rings will help I think.
I still think that mc fighter-mages are better than dc ones, well, definitely they are not as good spellcasters as pure mages. However, I don't think that you will only need real high level spells later in ToB.