30th Anniversary of John Lennon's Death

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Nior - I didn't post them because they were remarkable, but only to illustrate a point - That young girls screaming over the Beatles 45 years ago was, at least compared to some other sports events, not very remarkable.

 

Videos of girls screaming as MJ sing would have hit the point easier.

 

Not really. MJ is still a singer and subject to the same criticism. In fact, it would have diminished the point. People who scream, shout, wear the jerseys of their heroes, paint their faces, and generally, hero worship sports figures, seem acceptable for many, while the same can't be said for others who do the same for rockers, particularly someone like Lennon, or MJ. It is all suddenly something different....

 

What about people who scream when they go and see one of those TV evangelists? Or Oprah's holiday gift show?

 

They often faint as well!

 

Hey, I remember in the recent football tournament (FIFA?) where the Spaniards won. You know, the one with the octopus predicting the winner. Some gorgeous chicks started to show their breast in celebration. Would that count?

Now, that's funny.

 

Hey, I didn't know you were going to bring Janet Jackson into this.

 

Chandos, I think that you are doing a mistake. While in music and in movies the worship is about persons, in sports (team sports at least) the worship is about the club, not the players. You will never see sports fans come to blows for who is a better player, Messi or C. Ronaldo (Magic or Jordan if you want names that are more familiar to you) for example, but you often see them come to blows because they wear shirts of different colours.

 

That's not really true since there were 4 Beatles, and the sum was probably greater than the parts. But that is true of many bands. While you can say that individual members are popular, many will not agree upon who their favorite player is in a band. Of course there are always bands where only one player really stands out from the rest, but in the case of the Beatles at least John and Paul probably shared equal popularity. While sometimes it is just the band that is popular and not the individual players at all.

I'll have to take your word for that, BOC, since I really don't care enough to research it. But take the instance of Tiger Woods: You can't deny for a minute that his fans didn't hero worship him. Let me also ask you why corporate CEO's will pay millions just for endorsements from individual players, rather than whole teams. Jordan is an excellent example. These guys probably don't know crap about half the stuff they endorse, but fans are willing to buy some consumer product just because some jock got paid enough for someone to put his name on it (that's some real hero worship). As a sports outsider, I may not even know for whom a particular player is playing (the teams here are typically not owned by the city, but often by private individuals, so the place, or city of origin, hardly matters), but I know who some of these guys are just because of all the various commercials they appear on.

 

The Beatles members became famous due to their participation to the band, but their popularity continued after band's break up. On the contrary, the popularity of a player among the fans of a club stops when he leaves the club. They might cheer him, when he 'll return as rival, because they recognise his offer to the club, but they will never go bersek when they see him. Also, if he transfers to a enemy club, he will be viewed as traitor by the fans of his former club. The most famous case of this is Louis Figo, Barcelona's captain, who signed for Real Madrid. See how Barcelona fans "welcomed" him the first time he returned to Camp Nou wearing the shirt of the hated Real Madrid.



You might parallel this to "a love that turns to hate" relationship, but that's not exactly correct, because if he has moved to any other club the welcome will be totally different.

I'll have to take your word for this as well, since I don't know a thing about golf, I don't even know a golf fan.

They do pay for whole teams, the advertisements on the shirts cost millions. Why do they also pay individual players? Because they are the stars of the club, they take the most credits for club's success and therefore they are most recognisable by the crowd than the rest of their teammates. If you were a CEO, who would you chose to advertise your product, Magic or A.C. Green (IIRC, they have been teammates)?

 

As I already said, I don't really get either type of worship, although I don't typically complain that either type exists. To me, they are both equally over the top. (The thing I totally don't get is how you see riots in some cities after the local team wins the championship. At least I can see how painting your face and acting like a goofball could be construed as "fun" to some people. Setting cars on fire? Not so much.)

First of all, I do not believe all people in sports should be role models, just as I don't think all rock stars should be role models. They are paid to play a game or to play an instrument. That in no way qualifies them as role models IMO. It's fine to have a favorite team, or to be on the playground and pretend your are "Peyton Manning" or "LeBron James" or whomever. Ultimately the responsibility of teaching a child right from wrong does not fall onto someone he/she sees on TV throwing a football or dunking. It's on the parent.

As for Lennon, and whether or not he is a role model, I pretty much feel the same way. It's fine to like his music and admire some of the things about his life. However, just like anyone else in the world, he can be commended on some points and looked down upon for others. Maybe they just don't build heros like they used to.

And I think in your conversation with BOC you're spot on. You can like John, and you can like Paul, but you cannot like both of them the same.

 

That's far from the case. In fact, there is a new book out about Mickey Mantle:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/17/books/review/Olbermann-t.html

And that's just one player who played back in the 1960s!!!!

Again, you are focusing very much on only a small set of fans, compared to the national following that these guys receive. And there are still many sports figures who are not members of clubs at all, like Tiger Woods.

Yes, but he will have new ones, and it doesn't hurt him on the national sports scene. The player will still be very much in demand and can see an increase in overall popularity, despite how much local fans complian.

First, I have know idea who AC Green is. Second, I can't think of a single endorsement of anything that I have ever seen of an entire team. There may well be, but one would have to be a sports fan to take notice of it. For instance Tiger Woods sells Buicks.

Now the golf stuff I can understand. Because he really knows that stuff, and those who like the game would certainly value his opinion on such items. As an example there is a John Lennon "Revolution" guitar made by Epi. There are many musicains who desire that "John Lennon sound," which is closely linked to the Beatle sound of Epiphone guitars, especially from the mid-sixties, when Paul first started using Epis, and George and John followed suit.

http://www.epiphone.com/news.asp?NewsID=1686

But if John Lennon endorsed a Buick SUV and people went out to buy it, that is an irrational form of hero worship that critics can complain about (except in sports, it obviously seems). Frankly, I don't give a flip. I just find it interesting that those who complain about the "hero worship of musicians" have their own icons in sports, which seems just fine and dandy to them. But culture doesn't have to be rational, it only has to sustain the egos and fantasies of its own participants.

Aldeth - I agree with your post.

 

Personally I've seen quite a few people get heated in debates over the merits of individual sports players, sometimes nearly to the point of blows.

I think that the sports team example might better reflect the likes/dislikes of music genres and their attendant debates ("Techno sucks!" "Does not!" "Your team sucks!" "Does not!"), but while people debate sports teams and music genres, I don't often see them ready to throw punches over whether Eddie Van Halen or Steve Vai is the better guitar player.

lol, for some people that is the very definition of a great time. Get drunk, HULK SMASH!

 

I seem to have kicked off a firestorm. To address Chandos' point, I don't see the near worship levels of devotion given to musicians, sports stars, and even celebrities as being a healthy thing. I may spend a lot of moneyt o see someone in concert, or to purchase their DVDs or CDs, but the whole screaming, crying, "he changed EVERYTHING in my life!" hyperbole is just really, really bizarre to me. Lennon was talented and some of his songs are really touching, but I have a hard time believing that anyone is worthy of such obsessive behaviour.

 

I don't think that this indicates popularity. It seems to me more like an exploitation of people's childhood and teenagehood memories.

This small set of fans is where a player is admired most. He might be known and recognisable nationwide, but the core of his fanatic admirers will come from the club that he is currently playing. As for people like Tiger Woods, I will give Greek example in order to make my point more clear. Pyrros Dimas, (weight-lifter, 3 gold and 1 bronze olympic metals and several times world champion) is one of most famous non-club athletes in Greece, he has done commercials for yogurts, shoaps,etc. He has done these commercials because he is a well known figure, but he doesn't have personal followers, people who start screaming when they see him and follow his every move.

Correct, in this particular case Figo replaced Barcelona fans with Real Madrid fans. However think this, how many people do you know that have stopped following a band because a member left that band and how many people do you know that have stopped supporting a sport club because a player left? Personally speaking, I know many people who fall into the first category (myself included) but not one who falls in the second.

A.C. Green is a basket ball player, who played for L.A. Lakers in late 80s/early 90s. I brought him as an example because I thought that you would be familiar with NBA.

Well, I know at least one club that sells credit cards . In this article you can find some information about footbal advertising.

I don't complain about anything, I don't care if someone worships Michael Jackson or any other celebrity, I just say that IMO you are comparing different things.

I agree with the team/music genre analogy, but just go into any heavy metal forum and read the thread about Manowar. Some of the guys, who write there, will start throw punches if they have this discussion in real life.

 

I suppose this boils down to a value judgement for the most part, but personally I can see it for musicians/songwriters but not athletes, because music is an aesthetic endeavor while sports are not. Music, like any art form, can touch you emotionally and may carry various additional personal meanings that are shaped by your life experience - fundamental truths, inspiration, or just a the raw power of an emotional-aesthetic connection ... the art 'reaching' you. I don't see how that can be present in sports. You may enjoy them immensely, but essentially, as long as you're a spectator, they are a pasttime. (I don't mean to diminish sports fans by saying that - I enjoy sports to some extent too.) You may admire an athletes form (or a cheerleader's ), but I don't see how Tom Brady's passing or Lebron James' dunking can inspire you aesthetically.

Yeah, I think you may have a point there.

 

Really? Here, I'll post this again:

That doesn't indicate popularity?

It seem a odd thing that coporation would pay someone an astounding 40 million dollars:

I think you are projecting the sports culture in Greece over that of America's. And you cannot do that with any degree of certainty. If I give you an example of American culture it won't square very well if you say, "well in Greece it's like this...." That may specific to your culture but not to sports culture in the US. They ARE NOT the same thing.

I don't follow the actual teams at all. Does one player make a team? You bet. We had one right here in H-Town. There used to be a football team here, the Oilers. They had this sensation, Earl Campbell. The town went football crazy and if the "home team" lost, (which they did), you were supposed to commit suicide, or something. In the end they played him till he couldn't go on. Then after he left, things were never the same, so the owner took the "home team" to a new home place, like Kentucky, or some place; I can't remember. Now, we have a new bunch of losers that most people don't really care that much about. In fact, I can't tell you much about them, but when Campbell was here, you couldn't get away from the stuff, even if you were not much of a football fan. So yes, one player does make a difference. Besides, that has nothing to do with my point about the fact that fans in sports have "hero worship" as much as rockers.

Im really not. We have a team here, but I don't know that much about them. But I know who Michael Jordan is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jordan

I never said you did.

Not really, which is my point - Hero worship is the same thing, regardless. But comparing the US and Greece is comparing two differnt things.

Not really. I actually find this kind of debate intriguing. I think BOC's attitude towards sports is rational and healthy. But the problem is that many sports fans in the US do not have the same perspective on sports that BOC has. It would be the same as if my perspective on music was the same as that of a 16year-old over anything that Hana Montana does, or my 7-year old, for that matter.

 

You might be right here, our sport culture is more oriented to team sports than to individual's sports (I don't know if this is the correct term in English). We have few top athletes in this kind of sports, they are famous, but they don't have personal fellowers. You will never see people here wearing a shirt with the name of Zambidis (marshal arts) or Daniilidou (women's tennis) but you will see many who wear the shirt of their favourite football or basketball club. Now that I'm thinkin' of it, the only athletes that have personal fans here are F1 drivers (I know people that support Schumacher or Raikonen and not Ferrari) but again this has never reached the stage of worshiping them. Perhaps it's different in the US, however I have never seen someone in american movies or news footages wearing a Tiger Woods or a Mike Tyson shirt.

I think that you've missed my point.What I mean is that in team sports is the club that matters not the individual players even if they are the stars of the team. If I have understood you correctly, the retirement of this player had as a result the worsening of team's performance, so fans stopped going to watch them, the income of the club decreased and the owners took the club to another city, where it could be profitable. That's understandable, but what was the answer of the fans (after player's retirement and before the moving to another city) to the question "What team do you support?"? Did they say Oilers or did they say that they shifted their support to another team? To make my point more clear: Uriah Heep is one of favorite 70s band, but I don't care for what they did after Byron left them (ok, Firefly is a very good album and Lawton a great vocalist, but...). On the other hand Zarko Paspalj is my one of my favorites basketball players, he played for the basketball club that I support from early to mid 90s and led us from the last places of the league to championships and european cup finals. When he left and signed to our eternal enemy, I was saddened but the thought of start supporting the other club didn't cross my mind. On the contrary I was yelling "Zarko remember, we have loved you but now **** off and die". And that's not a Greek only thing.

Healthy and rational attitude? Me? That's an insult . I was a hooligan when I was a teenager and had participated in few clashes with rival fans, but not anymore (age brings wisdom). However, still I don't consider my attitude towards sports healthy and rational meaning that I don't care for what is good for the sport itself, I care for what is good for the club that I support.

 

Insult? Hey, which Hana Montana CD did you listen to today?

 

I agree but not totally. I would say that athletes should strive to be role models. Aside from trying to be the best they can be in their respective arena, they are also partly supposed to be inspirations for others. Not just in their field of sport but as well as their conduct and discipline toward other athletes and the public in general. That is what "sportsmanship" is about. As for "rock stars", I do agree with you, they are entertainers, they are paid to sing or entertain us.

We can continue to enjoy the songs of artist despite knowing that they are alcoholic, drug junkies, have bad attitudes or simply possess some undesirable qualities but we certainly can't enjoy athletes with such qualities. Unfortunately, money changes everything. A lot of these athletes have ceased to become athletes and are now just entertainers.