Another Religious subject: What Happens When You Die?

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Amon-Ra has a good point. Why should humans be superior? Have we ever evolved?
Have we become a greater, better race?
Certainly not. Humans are like carnivores.
Wipe the others away so we can rule ourself. The ideals of "perfect" humans are similar to when canines kill or shun
all different-looking pups.
And what about our inventions?
So many things were created with war in mind.
We are probably more controlled by our instinct than we believe.
So many doesn't think for themselves and
has the same opinions as the "leader".
For example my old school. I had a couple of friends. We had fun together every day. Then they began to be a lot together with a couple of guys that has hated me since THEY began talking to another guy who hated me.
They haven't talked to me since.
We are the wrong race to have all that power. I mean...during the cold war we had enough weapons to destroy earth
16 times or so.

 

Amon-Ra...

You say that you trust only what you see for it is all that exists. Have you ever seen a mirage? Your senses are fallible; the information they feed your brain is not necessarily true. Have you ever seen love? For that matter, have you ever seen your brain? If you only accept what your eyes see, then what about this life do you hold as truly valid?

It has been argued before that there is no true material world; everything we perceive, that we experience, is contained within our own minds. How do you scientifically refute that? It is impossible to even begin to think logically without starting on a foundation of faith. "Cogito, ergo sum" is a belief statement; as a self-defining statement, there is no basis from which to prove it. It must be simply accepted, and then logic can build upon that to create your paradigm.

As to your question, Arkados, the answer is that yes, I do claim to know God. Christianity is more than a religion to me; it is a relationship with God Himself.

 

Very well said Capstone.
Also, based on this, everyone lives in their own universe. Sometimes people have the same things in their universes, like, maybe, they both have a tree they can see and touch and presume is real. I live in what I presume to be my life with beings I presume to be human. Is there a God? Is there outer space? Is there, in fact, anything outside my room? In my memory of the past there is an outside of my room, but memories are uncertain. In what I presume to be my life, I do not claim to know anything for certain, I only presume as such and act accordingly. In my universe there is no God. There may be a God in your universe, but that is your problem. As it has been said that all your senses, everything you know, might not be real, therefor there is no one universe. Everyone has their own. So if you say there is a God, i believe there is. But he exists in your universe, not mine, and maybe not others. I am typing right now at what seems to be my computer, in reply to a post that seems to annoy me, because it pleases me. Maybe another day that same post will not annoy me. Maybe another day I will not even remember why it annoyed me. Is this real? I can only presume so. Now I seem to be getting tired and should get to what is presumably called sleep. When I wake up, will I see this post? Or will it be a dream? Who cares.

 

Nice Forum this one. My gratitude to it.

This is getting more and more interesting. I have made a mental picture of it to make it easier to understand. Here goes:
The sun. What is it made of? I would answer Hydrogen and Helium as I have learned. Then another "deeper question" Why does Helium and Hydrogen Glow? I would answer because the temperature is so high that a reaction occur, and light is emitted as a "waste" product. Why is Light emitted from reactions? Here I give up. And Faith In science takes over. At some point we just don't have the knowledge anymore and scientist have to have a faith equivalent to the ones Christians have. The Main arguement of the two philosopic post above this one.
This is true. But I think there is a difference though. It may be just cosmetic or a descussion of semantics.

Scientists start with deduction and end with faith
Christians start with Faith and ends with deduction

In a more clear mental picture Christians shape the world from their beliefs. The scientists work the other way around.

So just because faith is used both in religion and science doesn't mean its the same kind of feelings. This is a flaw in the english vocabulary.
fx my faith in programming made me type those silly [][/] in my name. the faith came from deduction of faith in my knowledge.

well now I have cofused myself. I didn't mean to bug You and all. I thought If was so simple in my mind, but images of the mind can be deceiving

By the way, my favorite quote to put an end to my mumbling here is:

Thank God,I am an Ateist!


[This message has been edited by The Nomad (edited June 28, 2001).]

 

hey nomad no problem, its very clear, not confusing at all, i get what u are trying to say

 

I see that a few of us question the existance of a world outside our own mind (is it all a dream etc...etc..). It is impossible for the human mind to comprehend such things and it is on faith that we can only keep this link with something higher. Generally, it is human nature to be selfish and self preserving. To believe that reality revolves around ones perception is selfish and ignorant to say the least. Do you believe that we are all part of your dream? And do we also believe this about you? (no one in particular). The individual is nothing but a very very..very small part of the whole, the one we have named God. It is quite humbling to think that we are nothing but a drop of water in the endless ocean. Religion is not ones perception alone, the belief that you make the reality around you and have such power to do so (at this stage) is nothing but a small perception in a mind trying to comprehend.

To finish off my say heres a little 'story'.

A man was walking along the beach pondering the meaning of the universe and God when he saw a child cupping sea water in his hands and placing it in a small hole in the sand. The man asked the child what he ws doing and the child replied, 'placing the sea into this hole'. The man replied by telling him that it was not possible to do. He had just 'answered' the question which was pestering him all along and fell to his knees in awe.

 

I believe that when you die, you can go to heaven or hell or be reincarnated. I also believe that humans are NOT superior to animals and that their souls are they same as ours. If you believe humans are "superior" then thats just really arrogant of you.

[This message has been edited by Elf_friend (edited June 30, 2001).]

 

Capstone: Certainly, my senses are fallible. They do occasionally fail me, and I wear glasses as a reminder. They, however, are the tools I have been given to interpret this world. My mind and my body are the only things of which I am aware, and thus the only guides I was given in this life that I can nominally call my "own". I have instilled a certain trust, not absolute, for I am not keen on being deceived, but a distinct and relatively large trust in these facets of interpretation. I do not claim to know everything, in fact I do not, and CANNOT justify any claim to "know" anything, to paraphrase Sohkraytz [B&T's, anyone?]. I claim exactly that.

As an individual, one of my personal goals is to attempt to understand, to make some "sense" of the world around me. I realize that to do so entirely is highly unlikely, but yet I will not cease, for perhaps I will aid the discovery, the progression of further generations. Thus in my mind, I will continue to uphold a "decent" and "kind" lifestyle without the need for conclusion. Never will I stop searching for understanding. I cannot concede to a single view, based on the words of others. I feel the inherent need to know things of my own accord, to hear and see and feel them for myself, not because of what someone else, somewhere else has passed down generation after generation.

Why should we believe? What do we gain? How does that help our fellow man? How does it benefit society? Religion, as a method of morality I have no problem with. Such was why organized religion took root: to take reigns over the masses and ensure domestic tranquility. Would anyone care to argue this historical point? But when organized religion begins to place holds on science, restricts biotechnology, advancements for the betterment of mankind because of how it "defiles the soul", I feel as a human being it my duty to resist. Excuse me if I do, I am only doing what I feel is best for mankind.

To speak entirely scatalogically once more, nobody answered me about God having testicles... I await your debate on this matter!!

Amon-Ra

 

I believe he is a hermaphrodite but people are used to refering to him as a 'he'.

This topic has already been debated to death imo so i won't add more.

[This message has been edited by Tyresian (edited June 30, 2001).]

 

I've been avoiding this topic for some time, mainly because I thought I'd have nothing to add, having no religious convictions, but I thought I'd put my own tuppen'orth in now.
1) with reference to herf's post. If I read that correctly, herf is saying that souls have mass. If this is true, then it has all manner of implications as far as I can see, such as souls being governed by physical laws and so forth. Maybe it even implies that Heaven and Hell are physically existing places - just wait until the property developers find out . Personally, although I am undecided on whether or not souls exist I feel that if there is a spiritual world, then it must be seperate from the physical world.
2) Humans and animals. I personally think that the whole idea of man being somehow seperate and superior to everything else is untrue. The universe is so large, the length of time before man's evolution (unless you take the 7 days stuff literally) is so vast, it seems unbelievably arrogant to assume that we have some form of priveleged position, and that all this is somehow run for our benefit. Biologists have tried (and failed, to the best of my knowledge) to find an anatomical feature unique to humanity and therefore a contender for the seat of the soul. I appreciate that it can be argued that mankind is the only species capable of self awareness to the extent that people are responsible for their own actions (possibly connected to the fruit of knowledge in Genesis), and therefore animals are exempt from any kind of judgement. Scientists are continually proving that animals aren't as dumb as we think, although self conciousness hasn't been proved. I think that even if animals were self-aware, in the same way that humans are, it would be impossible to prove.
3) I cannot imagine an end, however neither can I imagine an existence without corporeal support. At one point I had some idea, with no reason, that subjective time slowed right down so that your last moment lasted forever to you.

Just my random thoughts

 

Amon Ra, I sincererly agree with you that one must try to make sense of the world around him/her and not remain 'ignorant'. But when that gets to the point where you do not believe OR find it hard to believe what you do not see with your own eyes, that is being a little self contained. It is not possible to discover everything with your 'own eyes' and to only base your belief on that, will restrict the 'self discovery' in which you wish to endevour. Do you believe that there are planets other than our own, or that Earth is round, maybe continents do not exist which you belive do. You can't believe in these as you have not seen them with your own eyes.
As for God 'having testicles' if this is you trying to be funny... or maybe you are really asking a question? God as being male is just how humans express themselves when we talk about HIM/HER. If 'man' refered to God a she you would be asking why 'she' as well. It is like saying MANkind and is more respectful than saying 'it'. And no, we dont think God is male as there is no relevance in gender when talking about such a being.

Please, I'm not trying to start a flame or provoke you, just trying to answer your question and express my point of view. I would love to hear yours.

 

Oh no, if this were a flame war, my posts would be twice as long .

What you said is exactly what I am saying. I have never seen any continent other than North America, nor any states in the U.S. besides California, Arizona, and Nevada. Am I to believe that other states exist? For my theory on this as I have already drafted in times past, I can send you The Genesee Project, which states that none of you people really exist. Nothing besides So-Cal exists...

On a slightly more serious note, seeing as I have only witnessed such places, how am I to know of the existence of others until I have been there? Such is akin to Schroedinger's Cat Hypothesis: until I observe, interpret, comprehend, how can I know? How can I understand? True enough I have seen pictures, people, stories and songs enough to lead me to believe there are other places than my encapsulated world, but such could be an elaborate hoax. Truman Show anyone? Hence I do take many a thing upon a faith, I did not wish to imply I do not. Simply, nothing we learn, objectively, is true. Nothing exists beyond our facets of understanding what exists. To attempt to supercede those facets with extraneous theorems has always been a method of mankind, be it through science or religion.

However, what I see in my daily life perhaps give me a bias. I see across the street from my high school Western Baptists handing out flyers to children, telling them to convince their parents to come go to their church. I see these same Baptists handing out flyers and cartoons to kids at the Elementary School down the street from where I live. It sickens me to watch kids, 6-10 years old, being handed religious propaganda in order for these people to gain a larger congregation. Hand the flyers to the parents, not to a generation barely able to comprehend multiplication, let alone the aspects of universal existence.

I see protesters blocking the Biotechnical Convention in San Diego, many of whom take the role of a "Don't Play God" aspect. Playing God? We cannot alter the growth and production of plants and animals? Well someone had better tell the farmer who reaped the seeds wheat crop and forcefully planted them again in rows, or had his chickens lay eggs, then hatch the eggs and put another generation of chickens into slave labor. Certainly many natural aspects should be taken into consideration, such as the life cycle of the Monarch Butterfly, but to attempt to halt the wheels of progress on the basis of moralistic humanism is a plague to the global good of humanity. Perhaps if God didn't want us to tamper with the production of wheat, he'd send a little food the way of the millions upon millions of starving children around the world instead of expecting us to sit on the edge of a technology capable of supporting them and not using it because that would be infringing on his territory.

We dominate over other species every day, we ARE gods as far as earth is concerned. Billions of ignorant gods, flinging our fireballs at eachother instead of working together for a common good. Just think about it for a while, think what is best for humanity as a whole, and do something to help your Brothers, no matter what your Father would say to discourage you.

Amon-Ra

 

Amon-Ra, the reason for our disagreement is rather fundamental. You believe that your mind and body are the only tools that you have by which to perceive and understand the universe; I disagree. I believe that man also has a soul, which has a sense of its own. This sense is what is often termed the sixth sense; a means by which we as human beings perceive the non-material (i.e., the spiritual). This is to me the true definition of faith -- which is not the same thing as belief. Faith is a means of knowing something to be true which is not directly verifiable by the five senses of the body. It is through this sense that manipulation of the spiritual realm takes place. There are millions of verifiable experiences of the supernatural; I have had many in my own life. It is hard, if not impossible, to explain these from a purely materialistic viewpoint.

 

Good point Capstone, what people call sixth sense is a part of us (ie. the soul) which we cannot define and comprehend in a physical 'worldly' sense. It is not a matter of getting in tune with our souls as we are the soul, and the biomechanical machine we call our body is only temporary for this life as we all know.

Amon-Ra --> "However, what I see in my daily life perhaps give me a bias." Again this is your perception of what is happening. From another persons point of view they (the Western Baptists) could be handing out the pamphlets for the benefit of the children, in a society which generally has the 'every man for himself' mentality. This could be 'more' correct (or it may not be). My point being that you believing in your own self discovery, will only make you believe in things of life in your own bias way, which may not be necessarily whole or true. In order to open all pathways of self discovery in life (self being all, as all are one and one are all) you must properly investigate all aspects of a subject and then draw conclusions with an open mind. I have found my true faith in Christianity ie. in God, through being open minded and by searching. Look through all the superficial aspects and find the true source in whatever it may be in life. If you see one religious person doing something wrong acording to you, that is the individuals choice and not what all religious people stand for.

About people stoping 'progress' through protesting against cloning and other biomedical aspects etc. etc. I never heard any religios group protesting about altering plant production or animal production when it comes to benifit for all... but 'progress' can only be claimed so far. Cloning any form of life, especially humans is wrong by many peoples books religious or not. You cannot clone another living being. Everything has the right to live as an individual, unmolested in their natural form. We inhibit habitats and natural lifestyles of many living things in the name of progress, but to manipulate their very physical identity from before they're born is a crime to whomever you may whish to call it - 'mothernature' God, HUMANkind etc.

One question to anyone who would like to give their opinion. If there is no God and a God did not create the Earth, how did all come into being? The big bang theory is incomplete as any biology student would know, all living things must originate from other living things to put it bluntly. It raises the question of which came first the chicken or the egg? which this theory leaves unanswered. But who believes in the big bang as no one has seen it

I better stop rattling my bone box before I'm labled as a Confucious wannabe.

Peace.

 

Your points are true enough, indeed, both Capstone and Monk-

In regards to a sixth sense, certainly it is plausable to exist beyond the means i use, but the means i use suit me well enough. i, personally, have no need for anything beyond.

My view on the matter of influencing children truly lies in my fundamental belief that ANYONE has the right to do ANYTHING that is within their power. Is this not true? Anything you are capable of you are entitled to attempt to do, such is a fundamental right of living. Any opposition to you performing that action then also has the right to try and stop you, or punish you as they see fit for performing that action. I can, it is my right by birth, go out, find someone, and shoot them in the head. By being capable of doing such a thing it is my right. Then, the opposition can find me, handcuff me, take me to jail, prosecute me in court, find me guilty, and place me in a cell. Everyone is entitled to do WHATEVER they please, its simply a matter of overcoming opposition. Many people have personal oppositions, such as morals, codes of honor or ethics, etc., that would prevent them from doing such things. IMO that is a good thing, don't get me wrong, but additionally IMO to attempt to IMPOSE those codes onto someone else is not. Teach, guide, but do not rob children of their free will. To rob anyone of their free will is the gravest injury one can inflict, far worse than death.

Thus the people handing out the flyers have every right to target children. They have every right to practice whatever they wish. I am simply a part of their opposition.

Amon-Ra

[This message has been edited by Amon-Ra (edited July 01, 2001).]