Bomb in London

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I think we need to acknowledge that Muslum extremists do what they do not for a perceived political injustice but rather for a very personal spiritual exaltation.

It is not going to stop no matter what policy we adopt.

 

Oh please... They hate because their religion teaches them that anyone who does not subscribe to Islamic ideology are infidels...plain and simple-- and should be destroyed. I have studied the Koran -- I dated an Iranian for years and do know something about their religion. "Brainwashed" frequently goes by the term "religious fervor" and is quite common in all religions -- it's just that in most, believers don't believe in murdering those who don't subscribe to it.

 

I'm sorry, Spellbound, but that's rubbish.

You should try putting yourself in their shoes, and see how you would feel.

911, or the London bombings is nothing compared to the amount of innocent dead in Afganistan, Iraq etc.

I stress, I'm not sympaphising with these atrocities. They are wrong, plain and simple. But it's hardly purely just because they have a different religion to 'us'.

 

Barmy, I agree with you completely on this one. It's a very sad situation, but the fact is that a few bombs here are there are not going to destroy civilisation. But if we all go mad and get afraid and allow ourselves to be ruled by fear then that CAN destroy our way of life. I fully agree that the best thing to do is to try and show that these petty actions have no impact on our way of life.

That's a sweeping statement and I sincerely hope you're not talking about all Muslims there.

 

LOL -- Barmy -- you obviously don't know much about fundamentalist Islam. Individuals who believe in this, define their entire beings by it -- it is who they are. And in their minds -- it's the Chosen Ones vs. the Infidels (everyone else). This is precisely why they find great honor in committing suicide bombings -- all in the name of Allah -- it assures them a place with Allah. For fundamentalists, this is all they live for and all that matters. And this hatred that they breed goes back centuries.

You can call it rubbish -- but it's reality.

 

It is not reality. That's a very naive thing to say. And extremely wrong. I know plenty of Asian Muslims myself, who I get on with fine.

You should get to know more, before you make sweeping generalizations.

 

Barmy -- I know plenty of Muslims as well -- I worked with them for 10 YEARS. Many of them are my FRIENDS. I am speaking about "fundamentalists". Do you know what that is? They are a segment of Islam that believes in the death of all infidels. Read your news... Read your books. This is fact. And they make no secret of it.

Harbourboy:

Petty actions???? I never considered the killing of many thousands in one terrorist act to be "petty". I wonder if you would say that if you lost people in that attack -- or if you had to look at a skyline that was missing two buildings.

 

I didn't say that the impact on people was petty so please don't roll your eyes at everything I say. I'm just trying to share my opinions (which is the whole point of having these forums). I was referring to the action itself. I believe it is petty to go around blowing people up every couple of years and to think that is going to destroy all the 'infidels'.

And I still agree with Barmy that the best thing to do is to show that these actions do have no impact on our lives. And I would still say that if they came and blew up buildings in New Zealand as well.

 

Harbourboy -- Um, I count one rolleyes in my posts directed towards you...I hardly call that a barrage. And last I looked, rolling eyes wasn't against forum rules.

Let's hope you never have to put that to the test.

 

Let's hope none of us have to experience anything like that.

 

It's not like there are no Christians with this kind of mentality. Of course they rarely blow up buildings but that's mostly because they have no reason to, but then again the majority of even fundamentalist muslims do not blow up buildings or practice suicide bombings either. So you really should not critizise the knowledge of others when even your own knowledge seems to be a bit limited.

 

I will criticize other people's comments, if the person commenting is claiming he knows something about what he does not. Barmy's comments were so off the mark as to fundamentalist Islam in general, it wasn't even funny.

If you have read the Koran, you can see quite clearly that it implores the extinguishment of all infidels in the service of Allah. THAT was the original argument. Barmy was saying that these terrorists commit their acts NOT on the basis of any religious ideology, but because of what we did to THEM, etc. And that is incorrect. And we are talking about terrorists here, who are a faction of Islamic individuals, who carry out the religious mission. Do others believe in that mission? -- YES (per many opinions of my Islamic friends) -- do they carry out those beliefs? NO. Only a select few do that....but it doesn't detract from the rationale as to why they do it.

Before you chastise me for my responses, it might be good to look at the original argument as it was stated.

 

Spellbound - are you saying that your Islamic friends believe that you (as an infidel) should be extinguished?! Or are you saying that they believe that some other Muslims believe that?

 

I have not read the Koran but from what I've heard there is no such passage in the Koran. I might be wrong though since as I said I have not read the book myself. I think however that the closest thing to such a passage was that those who prevent the spreading of islam should be struck down.

Well religion helps of course and is a big factor but it ain't a sole factor. I find it quite naive to think that these people committ these acts just because they hate our religion, there are other cultural, historical and political factors involved.

 

Morgoroth -- take a good look. There's quite clearly more than one passage referring to the fate of the infidels:

Koran - Chapter 2

The terrorist fanatics see it as their license to kill.

Harbourboy -- My friends and a guy I dated for quite a few years (Iranian) have told me repeatedly that "the infidels must burn" ideology is very common among fundamentalists. Only those that are extreme radicals, however, act on it -- but the point they were trying to make is that -- that group of people is growing. There is a very strong "call to arms" movement, if you will, that is going through Islamic countries -- imploring that everyone take a more radical stand. Most of the people I know are in this country to escape that -- but they still have family members over there. The guy that I dated back some years was an economic advisor for the Shah of Iran -- when he was exiled, the guy came here. He received a lot of pressure to go back from family members -- to participate in the Jihad. He resisted it, but gave me quite an earful at the time. It was then that I read and studied the Koran. And, frankly, it made my blood run cold. We had many arguments about it -- and I never could quite come to grips with it, or accept it.

[ July 12, 2005, 01:49: Message edited by: Spellbound ]

 

Of course the people who pick those passages from the Q'uran tend to ignore the Surahs that call Jews, Christians and Muslim all people of the book. They also tend to ignore the, rather ironic given current history, fact that Jews and Muslims lived in peace for many centuries during which Jews were more disliked in Europe with it's various blood libel laws etc.

The Bible has some pretty crazy passages you can pull out, including one prophet who gets bears to kill children who mock him and Lot offering his daughters up for gang rape. The call to arms movements reminds me in some ways of the Nationalist movements that sprang up in my own country (Ireland) towards the start of the 20th centruy, although obviousl this is it's own unique situation and the comparision is not perfect.

 

Marcus -- I agree to some extent. I think most people believe this kind of rhetoric exists in most religions -- but, imo, not to this type of pointed, graphic extent. Regardless, the terrorists are indeed Muslim, which is the point here -- and they are using this book as fuel for their particular fire.

 

Are there any similarities between these terrorists and the Bolshevik and Serbian ones who menaced Europe 80 years ago and contributed to the events leading up to World War I?

 

HB -- Interesting similarity -- While the brutality may be similar -- I'm not sure those peoples saw suicide as the glory that these other people see it as. But who knows.

It's all very sad.

 

geez, see what I miss when I go home for dinner with the family...

Barmy, I agree with two points you made:
1) There's nothing we can do to prevent terrorists from bombing their chosen targets (and, as an aside, there's apparently little we can do to identify those targets.)
2) Current American action is not improving the situation.

However, the reasons for the Islamist (meaning someone who is after the death of infidels and an Islamic world, as opposed to Islamic, meaning a practitioner of the Muslim religion) hatred of westerners goes back far, far beyond American response to 9/11 and the Iraq war. Why did they bomb the WTC back in 1993?

This has been brewing for a long time, probably back to when the first Europeans took a region full of nomads and imposed national boundaries to simplify their access to the region's resources. American oil companies are just the latest in a long, sad line of greed-blinded entities who have made ill use of the Middle East and its people.