Consequences

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Sorry, what would the "problem" be?

 

@HB:
I have no problem with contraceptives, I was just making an interesting point.

@Rally & Dendri & HB & Montresor, anybody else want to join?:
Trust me, in the end, it will be your problem. (couldn't resist)

@Dendri:
My beliefs are violated when a college throws a student out for holding a bible study in his dorm room, WITH THE DOOR CLOSED! My beliefs are violated when the government says its illegal to spank your kids. Worldwide, Christianity is the most persecuted religion, currently, that's not looking at the past.

@Montresor:
You don't think belief is a conscious choice? Let me tell you, I chose, consciously, so did my gf, so did my brother, and so did everyone I know (not all choosing TO believe, but choosing ABOUT belief). God doesn't decide for you (and yes I got the bit about God making you not believe in Him, hardy har har), God gave you free will.

 

Here's a question:

If one doesn't believe, doesn't want to believe and feels he can't believe, would God want him to go against his own heart and force himself to believe?

Or should he do what feels right and not believe?

 

@Blackthorne:
Actually, you're wrong there. It went to court in Utah specifically because the college DID have an official rule, though it may have been around religion in general and not bible studies in specific.

@Taza:
God doesn't force anyone to believe, but He does try to convince us to. And yes, He wants everyone to be saved, which is why He told us to tell everyone in the first place.

 

How does he try to convince us? He hasn't tried to convince me.

 

I just knew you were going to pull out that lame old chestnut, NOG. Thanks for not disappointing me!

And I too would be interested in hearing more about that Bible study court case. If it's as you say I am equally offended, but I can't help feel that there's a lot more to the story.

 

I am not married, nor am I in a position of Priesthood authority, so I can make no official comment. Any such decisions between a man and his wife (and their bishop if they choose to ask him for guidance) are theirs to be made with the guidance of the Holy Ghost. Usually this involved Prayer and fasting where health permits.

Pride, one of the seven deadly sins. People like to believe that they are right and others are wrong. They seek to elevate themselves at other's expense. It hits both sides of the debate. When the Christian loses sight of what God asks of us, or the example of Jesus Christ, a wall of emnity is set up, blocking the words spoken from the heart of those who would hear them. Likewise, when the sinner believes the Christian foolish for not partaking of all the things which he enjoys for no obvious reason, their own pride erects such a barricade allowing them to dismiss the claims of those who try to tell them differently.

No, we just believe ours to be the best way through this world.

That's just it, we can't force them. But that does not mean that we should silently sit by while they continue in the paths of sin without speaking our piece. We must voice the option for a morally clean life so that all may consider it and choose for themselves. In the end, it's no skin off our nose if you still decide to sin, but we would be negligent of our duty to God if we sit back and shut up as some of you seem to want us to do.

This does not negate our duty to speak as we do.

Our beliefs require us to preach the tennets of our faith. Your insistance that we not do so demands that we be negligent in that duty. This is violating our beliefs.

That is very foreign to me. As a believer, I seem to be polar opposite of the case you describe. Ultimately, we can only ask that you try to obey and see if you feel any differently after trying to obey. If you still feel no differently after that, then you've tried, which is more than many would be willing to do...

God often works through those who will serve them. People like Chev, NOG and I (I don't think we're alone, but I can't remember who else stepped in on these matters right now) have taken up that position to try to share gods teachings as we understand them. He has, through ancient prophets, provided the Bible. According to the Mormon faith, the Book of Mormon is also such a record to convince those who will read it that Jesus is the Christ, and that he died for our sins. He doesn't come right down in your living room and say that you'd better get your butt to church. It's not about the loud fanfare of the world, but the quiet workings of the soul and the humble words of His servants...

Honestly Rally, I wish I could think of something better, but I've known the feeling of thinking I've done well on a test or exam only to see a big red 'F' on the paper. Maybe if I hadn't had too much in University, maybe I'd be better off now--but that's beside the point. The point is that you who don't believe and don't think think it's your problem think that things are going great, and in the next world, we think you'll see that big red 'F' on your page of the book of life if you do not repent and change your ways. Fancier words for a lame point (as you call it), I know, but like I said, it's the best I could do...

 

I think the important thing to remember - for all sides - is that everyone should be free to follow the dictates of their conscience, so long as they are not actually harming or coercing others.

Gnarff, NOG - you've got as much right to preach as anybody else does to tell you where to stick it. Which is to say, you have every right. Hopefully, most people aren't so rude as to say that to you. In an ideal world, people would listen and make up their own minds, and let others do the same, rather than letting their tongues keep them deaf. That you're annoyed by someone's superior manner doesn't mean they can't be at least partially right, or have some good points to consider.

If anyone feels that it's their duty to spread the word of a faith, then they should do it - but they must recognise that in a non-theocratic state, one cannot impose one's beliefs on others. That goes for believers, atheists and agnostics (although I think an agnosticism activist would be a contradiction in terms), because arrogance and superiority complexes are not limited to those who feel they enjoy divine favour.

Without meaning to sound rude or cast aspersions on anyone, I think that's a very arrogant assumption. I'm undecided on the matter myself (ie: if and how God operates - I'm tending towards the "if you do things right, people won't know you've done anything at all" stance), but if God worked through people's actions, one would assume that God would work through the actions of both the good and the sinful. Clouds, silver linings and all that.

And that, Gnarff, is where we are in complete agreement. Those who do good things for the right reasons seldom need any reward except to know that they have done right. If only that was the attitude shared by more people - religious or not.

 

How am I supposed to tell between the genuine messengers of God (maybe you are one) and the raving lunatics (I'm sure you're not one)? What if NonSequitur is the real messenger from God? How am I supposed to know? If God was a little more clear with His communications then it would be easier for me to understand His promises and whether He is living up them or not.

 

The real problem is where the line should be between the duty that Gnarf claims and the desires of those who don't want to hear it. And I put the line firmly at one; as soon as the person who doesn't want to hear it says so, you should leave, knowing that at least you have tried. Badgering people about it does much more harm than good, and any time I see someone pursue the discussion even after the other party has stopped, I step in (no matter which side is doing the badgering, since I've seen some aggressiveness grow out of the "sinner's" side).

That said, so long as both people are engaged in the discussion, they can butt their heads against their respective brick walls as much as they like. And I'm sure they'll both come away from the wholly voluntary discussion with the impression that the other side was the one proselytizing and badgering.

Which is yet another reason why I don't discuss my religion in public, but only with friends and close relatives. I just don't need the aggravation. (Though on reflection, perhaps that's not the best policy either. ) And if any stranger out of the blue tries to tell me what I should be doing or not doing, I tell him/her in no uncertain terms to f*** off and mind their own business. They go away thinking I'm an unreasoning brute (probably even thinking I'm a satanist ), and I salve my conscience with the knowledge that I have most likely saved us both some bruises on our heads from those brick walls.

 

Where that assumption comes from is that we've been taught what we understand to be God's will. We are now trying to do as we've been taught. When we deviate from that path, we are no longer doing God's will and thus lead ourselves to sin (usually the opposite of God's will). If we do things right, the world will not know of our good deeds, and we will never know the true effects of our actions...

It's not about God being unclear, but Satan blurring the lines and confusing people. Satan puts so many conflicting ideas in people's heads that the truth is harder to spot (like multiple choice exams, it's easier to choose between two answers than between 200 answers). But God has given us all the ability to discern the truth from the chaos (and what parts people have right and what parts they have wrong) if we study the text book (the Bible for starters) and pray and think hard.

 

But what if Satan has blurred the text book and moved the hand of the people who have translated it over the years? What do I do then? What if the Bible is wrong?

 

Not to forget that there are a hell of a lot more textbooks than just the bible to choose from.....

 

The thing is, Gnarff, I *DO* believe, I just believe differently than you do. To be told that my beliefs aren't good enough and I have to switch to yours (or whoever is preaching at me, I don't mean this personally, my friend) if I want to avoid eternal damnation is rather offensive - especially since my beliefs are the wellspring for yours (again, a generic "you"), and that a major tenet of my beliefs is that "the righteous of all faiths shall earn their plae in the world-to0come."

 

Well, Rally, the thing you have to rember is that we aren't saying you're entirely wrong, just that you missed something. Judaism has been waiting for the messiah for thousands of years, longer than I could tell you, and we're saying He's here. As for others, well, yes, we are saying they're wrong, but what are we supposed to say? God tells us He is the only way, there's no compramising in that.
As for everyone wondering who speaks the truth, well, that's a big question, and all I can say is that God will speak to you when He decides the time is right, but you have to open your hearts to the possability that you're current beliefs may be wrong, first.

 

Is your heart equally open to that possibility?