France in flames

Remove all ads!

@ Undertaker

Petitions are nice and all, but often the politicians can simply ignore them. Now, if you put a barrel of a gun under their chin and give the petition, they are more prone to listen, no? It's not them who are living in the constant poverty, but you. All the while wondering how it would be to earn 10,000 €/month instead of 500.

 

Violence leads only to violence. There are ways to deal with problems without having to burn 1000 cars.

 

Maybe Le Pen will gather more than 20% of the population in the next elections. I like the idea of it.

 

What do you like about le Pen ?

 

How much more of this can the French take?

 

He is anti-immigration and conservative.

 

It's a bit late for anti immigration policy in France, wouldn't you agree ? There's already millions and millions of immigrants. Instead of driving both groups further apart, they would benefit more from working towards a satisfying solution for both sides. Le Pen is only more oil on an already raging fire.

 

Sorry, but I can never comply with a defeatist attitude. There is always a solution as long as there are people committed to stand and reverse things.
You mention benefit, but there is nothing positive these immigrants have brought into a rich country like France. None. Except for "multiculturalism", but this is hardly a factual and objective benefit, but rather an ideological one, which fits leftist wishes, and obviously does not count.

 

I partly agree with you, but this happens to be the situation. France always had a liberal immigration policy, and besides...they once owned half of the African continent, their influence is still big in several countries there, so it's not that weird that people from those lands look for a better future in the land of their former rulers. They could shut their frontiers, which would probably be better for everyone, but they can't push the already present immigrants away as if they don't exist. Would you rather see them starting to deport all foreigners back to where they originate from ? I don't think that's a realistic option, do you ?

 

Depends how it is done. First of all, the borders should be shut. Then what to do next is another subject.

 

Maybe they'll ask for American military intervention.

 

Crazy stuff. It's all like something out of Les Miserables.

 

And now they start to burn churches. This can result in religious war.

 

Didnt we see that one coming.

Yup. Especially since the US forces have a reputation for being good with deescalation and are popular among moslems.

Oh wait... thats not so.

 

Anti-immigration policies at this point would not benefit anyone. The problem with some immigrants is that they have big problems in integrating with the society which results in them alienating themselves from the rest of the society and then they create their own slum areas filled with crime and poverty. The government should definently help in the integration but the immigrants should also take initiative themselves. When in France you live by the French rules.

These sorts of riots and vandalism are of course not acceptable and should be quelled as soon as possible. The slow government reaction tells once again how incredibly inefficent the French government is right now and apart from the emergency meetings nothing significant seems to be happening as of yet and the riots just keep spreading. I'm just a bit afraid what will happen in the next elections in France. The socialists will probably benefit from the bad economy and the extreme right will benefit from these riots, personally I don't think either one would be a very good choice for neither France nor Europe.

 

I think the problem is not that immigrants find it difficult to integrate, but actually *don't* want to integrate. A good example is how I was thrown out of a Filipino cafe in Belfast for being local. They really should have signs saying "No Irish Allowed"!

I also remember speaking to a German girl and learned that she never tried any local food, dispite being here for 4 years.

And I better state that I am not racist, as integration is not* giving up your own culture.

*Edit: I forgot the 'not' in the above sentence

[ November 07, 2005, 15:24: Message edited by: Cúchulainn ]

 

There they come crawling out of their holes again... *sigh*


Integration is mutual. The immigrant has to have the will to be a part of society, and society (i.e. the politics) have to cater for that. In France, there were no such policies, as far as I know.

I know that we did not have immigration policies since two or three years ago.

I mean, some of the suburbs which are now riot zones were erected to house immigrants. Whose fault is it then, when the immigrants keep to themselves? When the society gives them the feeling that they are not wanted?

 

Cúchulainn, I am afraid you are right with the first part. But integration isnt about food and cooking. Wouldnt we be happy if immigrants here would merely refuse to eat Sauerbraten, but still all bothered to learn our language.

At least we would have one thing we could work with, grounds to stand on and try to make improvements.

And integration, in my opinion, does not mean giving up one's culture. It should not be that way. Must not be that way. Integration means partaking in the society they live in. Nothing that outlandish to expect, one would think.

 

You have to consider our history of immigration. The italians, greeks, spanish and turks were brought here to work. They were separated from the germans and lived in factory-apartments. They (and we) thought they would go home after few years. Most of them did. The rest was stuck here.
At first, no one saw the need for integration (policies). As long as there were jobs for unqualified workers, there were no problems. They kept to themselves and the to sides did not bother each other. Which was fine by the majority politics. "Multiculturalism" means exactly that.

Now that the immigrants of third and fourth generation grow up, they see that they have few chances to be succesfull. Dendri, you know how our school system disfavours children out of families with low social standing. Since most immigrant families fall into that category, the children have a rather dreary life before them.

You have to look at the people's situation before you expect something from them. They were made feel unwelcome, they have low grade of education, it was not necessary for them to learn our language in the first place and they were left alone.
Do yuo really think they would try to integrate on their own accord?

 

Do not put all immigrants under the same, general title. I, myself, will be one in the near future and I will not be coming from a poor, african country just to "rob" your riches. Due of this interest of mine, the wish to leave Finland, I have been studying the immigration policies of countries like Australia, Britain, China, and Belgium. Guess what? Most of them are incredibly strict, especially towards young, willing-to-commit people that do not yet hold much work-experience. For example, a country with strict immigration policies: just test your chances.

Is that the policy France should have; strict NO to all non-french people? I believe in liberalism in this aspect, yet understand the need to protect the benefits of permanent residents. So my question is this: why France, and other well-developed countries, do not loose the rules for other, similar countries and stricten them for 3rd world countries? IMO, it's pretty insane to demand MA papers, before-leave income-rate of 40,000 €/year, respected position, and, preferably, a likewise-well-to-do spouse just so you can loose all that in the immigration process?

Just trying to say that immigration could be regulated better by many countries and it could be more liberal that what it is today. As it is, it seems like several countries are truly afraid of foreigners in the political level. Anyone who has seen what Russia demands from all tourists and travellers should know what I mean.

[ November 07, 2005, 15:25: Message edited by: Wirhe ]