Freedom Flotilla hijacked

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One thing to keep in mind when watching the videos: The Israelis confiscated all recording devices of the 600+ flotilla passengers. What we got to see is what we have been "allowed" to see by the IDF had been "edited" for our viewing. Just think of 'Pimp' O'Keefe as for what that can mean.

 

They also knocked out all communications disabling all cellphones and computers making it impossible for anyone on the flotilla to report what was happening while it happened.

 

Ragusa, joacqin you have just described what all modern forces are trained to do when they carry out an operation.

like I said, this was no full charge attack, there was no gunship covering the team as it landed, there were no concussion grenades blasting the deck, the men absailed down one at a time - I dont think ive ever seen a mode friendly incursion by Israel.

Israel claims a 20 mile zone around Gaza's waters.

Nothing is going to end the blockade, bar perhaps abiding by it. Israel has one of the most powerful fighting forces on this planet, they even have nuclear weapons - noone in the international community is going to do anything about it save a few harsh words. Theyll speak aout about their outrage, protesters will riot, rinse and repeat

 

What good do them their nukes when the ships keep coming? What will they do? Kill everyone who dares stand up to them? Nuke Ankara?

Israel doesn't exist in a vacuum. Actions have consequences, and what Israel does is guaranteed to generate hostility.

What are you trying to say anyway, something along the lines of: Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must? That's a very Darwinistic view of international affairs. It can work just as easily against Israel. Will you ask for mercy for her if history turns against her? Or will you condemn her, just like you do with the Palestinians, to their fate, because, alas, that's how things go?

 

Ragusa, Joacqin, without any shred of evidence that the Israelis attacked first, and with substantial evidence that they didn't, I think you're grasping at straws. As Shoshino pointed out, the communications blackout is standard procedure in all military forces. Video or no video, I stand by my analysis of the situation. If the Israelis had wanted to kill people, they would have done so on all three vessels, not just one, and they would have established a beach-head on the boat first and then gone about a systematic sweep of the ships, resulting in very high casualties among the activists and very few casualties among the commandos. That's not what happened.

 

The question is shooting with what first? I read the Israelis pelted the ship with tear gas rounds and stun grenades while and before they rappelled. Tear gas canisters are dangerous. Call me old fashioned, but shooting such stuff at me I would count as an attack.

You praise Israeli restraint? You call killing 10 and wounding 75 restraint? You put it as if the Israelis had no choice but to storm the ships. With a reasonable approach the Israelis could have gotten the ships stopped killing nobody at all.

Try this former Israeli Navy officer and former Mossad agent's view on the raid for a change: Gaza flotilla raid ’so stupid it’s stupefying’

 

I'm not sure Ostrovsky is very credible in this, it seems to me he's just plugging for publicity ... disabling the propellers of a moving vessel is not a simple or safe task (you could sink the ship); also, commandos are vulnerable to resistance at any boarding (from the sea, from the air, stern, forecastle, or midships) and the spot for insertion is typically dictated by the winds.

 

Can't speak for Ostrowsky, but I suppose he meant damaging the propellers in harbour. I don't think he is plugging for publicity either; he was more likely approached by Jeff Stein as an insider - a former Israeli Navy officer and former Mossad agent. A very undramatic explanation, I know.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37460910/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/

MSNBC shows it mostly as an Islamic Turk group. Though, if any government backs them, I can't say.

 

The more I read about this, the more I think that Israel was out maneuvered. The aid flotilla was not merely carrying aid. While I suppose the people on the boat had a right to protect themselves, it's not like they were just cruising along in international waters and were totally blindsided. I would hazard that the Israeli troops got tired of these terrorists thumbing their noses at them and decided to teach them a lesson.

In the meantime, the fat cats who oppose Israel used the lives of their foolish underlings for political gain, as is so common with the Palestinians and their supporters (you don't often see older men doing suicide bombings -- they sit back where it's safe and brainwash the young fellows to do that -- same principle in action here.)

I know Israel isn't perfect. But they do have the right to defend themselves. Sometimes defending yourself means making a show of strength -- as in "if you provoke me I'll smash you flat". Card had the right of it in Ender's Game -- sometimes you have to really be brutal to get your point across to someone who is bound and determined to hurt you. We have seen occasions in the past when Israel tried unilateral concessions and were greeted with . . . continued rocket and suicide attacks. Why some people expect them to roll over and take it in the tailpipe is beyond me.

 

There were plenty of "fat cats" onboard, one member of the Swedish parliment, one of the most popular authors in Sweden and from what I understand various big shots from other parts of Europe as well. A former US ambassador to Iraq or something was onboard as well. I think you have a quite skewed view of the situation.

As much as I like Ender's game and a lot of Card's work I must say that the man is about as right wing as they come. The only time that philosophy works is if you are 100% sure that you are in the right and if you read the follow ups to Ender's Game you would see that even Card himself pointed out the price of being mistaken. The other Ender books are about his guilt over wiping out an entire race over a misunderstanding and Ender's efforts to redeem himself.

 

Israel has a track record of shooting first and thinking later. The excuse for such behavious always seems to be "everyone hates us!" Well, eventually they will become a victim of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The boarding was poorly planned and poorly executed -- this was a check on a suspicious vessel not an assault on a pirated ship.

 

I've read they were carrying bullet-proof vests, night-vision goggles and gas masks. That's hardly aid material. I don't care what previous credentials the passengers had, assuming they knew about the contents of the cargo hold (and I'm prety sure they did) they are nothing more than criminals and deserved what they got. Israel would be morons to let that sort of material go into the Gaza strip. It looks to me like the Israeli's didn't get it wrong this time. That flotilla was not more an "aid" flotilla than I'm the King of France. So all the peacenik horse <snip> about the Israelis picking on some poor, innocent aid workers is nothing but a lie.

 

And you believe everything that you read? Keep in mind that, as I said, the Israelis have confiscated all recording equipment on board, and edited the videos they released.

Apropos editing ... the motto of the Mossad is: By way of deception, thou shalt do war. Arguably, Liebermann and Netanyahu see this as war. I wouldn't put it past Israel to ... deceive, selectively inform or outright lie to justify their attack. The Israeli attack is only justifiable if the people on the ships are cast as dangerous, fanatic villains. It doesn't mean they were.

I strongly agree with T2's general take. Shoot first, think later sounds about like the kind of knee-jerk reaction one can reliably expect from guys like Liebermann. That's the way the current Israeli government apparently likes their foreign policy.

I think Ostrowsky really put the finger on the key question: They knew where the ship was going. Why not wait? After all, this is isn't the first aid 'flotilla' headed for Gaza - something like this has happened before, without all the hysteria. It confirms in me the view that this has everything to do with the government and their government's hysterical view of the world.

 

Bullet-proof vests and gas masks could easily be aid for a combat zone.

Finding proof of wrongdoing after use of excessive force is always suspicious. There are ways to stop a ship and prevent its passage -- the Israeli's really needed to prolong the engagement and board the vessel in a safer manner. If the occupants of the vessel start to throw contraband overboard you really don't care from a military standpoint.

 

Could you build on this theory and explain why nobody was injured or hurt on the other vessels? Then again, maybe the Israelis are that devious that they would plan this knee-jerk operation so throroughly that they would only go on a rampage on one of the ships, this way the media would believe them and then love them. Yeah, that's the ticket. (done in my best Jon Lovitz voice)

 

Some of the Swedes have gotten home now and one actually a got a weapon taken from him, a plastic razor he had in his cabin was touted by the Israeli soldiers as an armed weapon as it had not been used yet.

According to the same people there were plenty of violence on the other boats as well with people being beaten and shot with paint ball guns my guess would be that there were a few hot heads on the tragic boat who didnt enjoy being beaten and who fought back giving the Israeli murderers their chance to kill (the choice of words is intentional people have no problem condemning Palestinian killings and portray them as ruthless murderers and neither have I when the situation calls for it but the Israelis are no better and often worse especially since they claim to represent a free and democratic state).

 

Snook,
the Israelis themselves admitted 'intelligence failures'.

They were clearly unprepared for stiffer resistance.

The other explanation I have is that the casualties were mostly on the largest ship - with the greatest number of people. After being pelted with tear gas and stun grenades or shot with paint ball guns chaos, anger, fear, pain and group dynamics can easily account for the escalation. That's how it usually is in street protests turning violent.

 

Yeah I agree, as the men rapelled one by one with their weapons slung, there was no attack, they didnt shoot indiscriminatly, they fired after they were brutally attacked on the deck, frankly Im amazed more people werent killed, I wouldnt give US or UK forces the credit of only 10 killed in these circumstances.

If Israel wanted an attack, raid or whatever uneducated people are calling this alot of people would have died, Israel has an incredable force available to it, this was not murder or a massacre, this was actually a peaceful attempt at boarding a ship.

yes I do, lets bare in mind they were attacked first and suffered 12 casualties, I cant say that my experience with the marines would have resulted the same, noone likes boarding ships, I think the death toll could have been alot higher if it werent for disciplined soldiers, there were plenty of people to kill, very few got killed.

explain that, If Israel really wanted the blood bath they have been accused of why were so few people killed?

thats life, do you really think that the word gives a s**t what the US thinks because they ask nicely? no, its because theyve got the most powerful millitary on this planet (rival with china maybe)

Ive heared that as well, but I havent seen any evidence of it, If it were true, I would like to say that those soldiers assulted as they landed wouldnt have happened, tear gas and stun grenades are nasty things, they really help to quell resistance.

This is very true T2 knows his navy, we actually practice attacking the rudder and propeller in an effort to sink vessels when stronger methods are unavailable.

100% my view, this was not an attack by one of the worlds finest commando units.

You seem to, from the other side, there have been plenty of videos released from the decks of the ships, and you claim that the isralies have edited the footage they have released, you are really grasping at straws, you have no evidence of your thin claims.

really, evidence?, Ive heared alot ot weak claims from the people onboard the ship, all pro palestine I might add.

LOL

 

Perhaps no one on the other ships offered resistance....