Healthcare Plan Misinformation Video-induced Debate

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Whatever...

 

But you're not, and then you accuse me of doing the same thing. Look, I admit, Bush and Company were not the most ethical of administrations. Did they do things that I do not approve of, yes they did. Do I hold Obama to a higher standard, yes I do. The reason for that is that is what he campaigned on and convinced everyone was what he was going to live up to. The same goes true for a GOP holy roller who ends up in a motel with a trannie. I never held Slick Willie to a high standard as even his supporters knew he was a scumball, but he was an effective scumball.

 

Yes, I agree with everything you said, even that Obama has NOT done what he said he would during the campaign. The part I don't get is why you have two different standards. Both sides promise high standards, and both sides fail. Remember, GWB promised "big change" as well. While we got "change," it was not what we were expecting. The same holds true for Obama - there's a reason he's down in the polls, and it just ain't the conservatives, since there are a large number of liberals, like myself, who were expecting much more in the "change" department. But I still don't get your "two standard" system for judging him.

 

Interesting question. I guess I don't hold anyone to the same standard at anything. I base my standards and my expectations on what I know and believe the person is capable of and how a person portrays themselves. I expect "Teen Snook" to get good grades as I know he is smart. I do not expect him to be a star soccer player as he is slow. If he gets a bad grade I'm disappointed, when he scores a goal I'm excited.

I'm the same way with politicians. Sell yourself as a "I'm going to throw all those bums out and make things better" kind of guy then I'm going to hold you to a higher standard as you have convinced me you are better. Turn out to not be better and I will be more disappointed then I would be when the "bum" continues to act like a "bum".

I admit this is a far bigger problem with the GOP as quite a few love to play the Christian card and then get caught doing un-Christian things.

I'm not picking on you, It just seems that whenever this administration or Congress does something wrong the standard Dem response is "Bush was worse". I don't really care about Bush anymore as he is the past and can't influence anything anymore. I would love to see the Dems hold themselves to a higher standard then the GOP did as the GOP obviously hasn't had very high standards recently.

 

It seems that there is some crosstalk in this issue (I don't know how else to describe it). I still remember in the early years of the GWB adminstration when I (and others) would complain, and conservatives would comment that "it wasn't any worse than Clinton did, or worse -- "what Bubba did." So I guess from that perspective, I can understand your frustration. The big question in my mind is, did you really WANT Obama to change things? Or is this just griping on an issue that you sense O. may be vulnerable on? There's a big difference.

 

While I personally believe that what Obama is trying to accomplish will damage the country for years if not generations, I am more than willing to be happily proven wrong.

 

I'm guessing that there is nothing he could have said or done that would have changed your feelings. IMO, it appears Obama is striking a middle-ground in his policy, which means that both the left and the right are unhappy with what he is accomplishing. That said, it's interesting that he is still the most popular politician in the country. The real problem is not Obama, but Congress. They are all over the map, and it appears to be a fight for self-interest among all those "professional," career politicians.

I would suggest the instruction of James Madison in this instance. He was known to believe that "self-interested parties" in govenment would be the major stumbling block in achieving good government in our particular system. Note that Madison never made any distinction among parties - only that they were self-interested in their approach in politics. His hope was that they would keep each other honest, and that the checks, and ultimate balance, would be maintained by the different, competing insterests within our system.

Edit - Here, TGS:

 

Too far...

It's not a YouTube clip, but now demonstrators in some town hall meetings are turning violent. Enough is enough...

Link

 

Aldeth, there's nothing new there. People have had scuffles at city council meetings, town assemblys and what have you for years. To be honest, it probably will never change. There will always be somebody or some group who feels slighted over policy changes that affect them negatively. I know Healthcare is a bigger issue for most compared to say highway upkeep or pay raises for the teachers, but there will be those who lost someone due to these changes and will let their emotions get the best of them.

Personally, I like the Townhall forums Obama is running, at least he is getting his word out to the people directly, making it harder for various media outputs to put their spin on it and distort what he is trying to do before getting the info to the public.

 

Well, the title of the clip was, "Violence Increasing at Townhall Meetings". So, it's not like I'm jumping to this conclusion on my own. Others seem to share in the opinion. I've seen some angry people at the health care townhalls this week, but there was no pushing and shoving and a guy getting his shirt torn open, with another going to the hospital with minor injuries. Perhaps violence in townhall meetings is not unique to this issue, but it is the first time I've seen in regards to the health care debate. So when you had no violence, and then you get some violence, it seems fair to say the violence level has increased, or that previously non-violent townhall meetings are starting to turn violent.

 

Yeah, Aldeth, I agree it has gone too far. The insurance companies are busing in some jokers to "shout-down" the town hall meetings that are supposed to be for representatives and their constituents to discuss the health care reform bill. Unfortunately they know they cannot win the actual debate, so they are using fear and intimidation tactics to shut it down.

 

I hope that's not the case Chandos, but I think your probably right. Having the input of the people can really help Government make the changes that the people want and need, not want the insurance companies need to continue to line their pockets.

 

That was nothing compared to the fiasco in St. Louis

It seems to me that the town hall protests were all peaceful until the unions started sending their members and our elected politicians started calling them "mobs".

 

They are not "mobs," TGS. They are nothing more than GOP liars and plants...Take a look at this:

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/grassroots-protester-actually-gop-official.php?ref=fpa

---------- Added 0 hours, 10 minutes and 47 seconds later... ----------

More health care fun:

 

Last time I checked Republicans were citizens and well within their rights to go to town meetings and be heard.

EDIT: It appears that the St. Louis protestors are holding a rally at the union's headquarters to protest the violence. This is from their statement. Anybody care to place a wager if any of this will happen. Well maybe the last one will.

 

They are, and nevertheless, some citizens feel the need to lie about who they are and what they are doing. Yet, the lack of honor and integrity in this instance doesn't suprise me.

 

The one thing that kills me the most about the protests is this: back in 2005, MoveOn.org held a contest for people to submit their own films criticizing the Bush admin's war policy. Among the many creative entries, some jerk submitted a video comparing Bush to Hitler. The folks at MoveOn immediately removed and condemned the video, but that didn't stop a 2-week non-stop freakout from the right, particularly Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. This, by the way, is the incident that started the whole "MoveOn called Bush a Nazi!" nonsense that still lingers to this day.

Now, today, we have "concerned citizens" showing up at these town halls brandishing these:



...all the while - by sheer coincidence, I'm sure - we have Beck and Limbaugh and Hannity and Gingrich going on the radio and comparing Obama's healthcare policy - not kidding - to what Hitler did under the Nazis, and calling him a fascist (among other things). I heard this myself, on the radio today and yesterday. I really didn't think they would sink this low, but here we are.

I knew Obama's election was going to upset people, but I had no idea it would drive an entire section of the country batsh*t crazy. There are concerned citizens wanting to have their voices heard, and then there's this. Scary. This is the kind of stuff that really makes me think an assassination attempt is likely.