Mutiny as passengers refuse to fly until asians are removed

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Yeah i know, but i don't live in your country now do i ? I live in a country where we can say what we think, where religeon doesn't dominate our way of life, and frankly, i'm quite happy with that.

Oops...you failed to mention one tiny issue...it was a British white who had converted to islam, which puts him on the same idiocy level as his (in this case) Pakistani brethren.

I'm bracketing ? Okay, but don't i have at least a valid reason for that ? I don't see Budhists flying planes into buildings, or Jews, or christians, or whatnot. It's Muslims, time and time again. So is it THAT weird that people are starting to keep an eye on them, for safety measures ? This goes way beyond political correctness, our faith in humanity and naivity has backfired on us one time too many.

[ August 27, 2006, 14:49: Message edited by: Pac man ]

 

I know America is not a "Shining knight on a white horse" but it sure seems that when people are in trouble or need they put their hands out to America for assistance. Many assume that since America is so large it has some kind of responsibility to help everyone else. Sure, there are instances when America thinks it should help but in reality it is not our business. I know we should not always interfere but we are railed at if we don't help and cursed if we do. No matter what this nation's stance we lose.

I can not say America is better than any other country, as I have just recently returned from living overseas, but I can say I am glad to be here.

My defense of my views may be a bit off topic.

Touche DS, I stand corrected. I should have said the vast majority.

 

I agree with Barmy Army. Both he and I know loads of Islamic people and none of them have ever tried to blow us up. So for me, the gross generalisation would be that all muslims are peaceful people, because I have never actually met any of the nutty ones.

 

I cast my vote with Barmy Army and Harbourboy. Having lived in New York city I have had a great deal of contact with people of near East, Middle East, Asian, Arabic (whatever you want to call them). I never had any problems and the food is very good and healthy.

 

Guess you're just lucky then, because they ARE outthere, and plenty of them too. Remember the cartoon issue, which resulted into global demonstrations ? There were some pretty interesting pictures shown on the internet of some of the texts that were displayed on homemade banners and stuff, and they were all UK residents too. Pretty amazing that we allow that kind of stuff to happen in our own backyards.

I'm not too keen on generalisations either, but it's kinda hard to deny that we're facing a serious problem here lately, and it's not just in Europe. And i'm even less keen on putting my head in the sand and act like there's nothing going on. Just recently Germany escaped on what could have been another bloody attack on innocent trainpassengers, and guess who were planning the attack, guess where they came from ? Do i even need to spell it out ?

 

Remember that it is only the nutty ones that make it onto the news. A picture of a bunch of people quietly going about their daily life does not make for very interesting news.

 

Hey, i don't know any of the nutty personally either, but that doesn't mean that they're not around. It's just that when we finally do hear something from them, it's usually too late and too bloody, and that's why i think the pilot shouldn't be treated like he's an ordinary racist, he just didn't want to take any unnecessary risks.

 

I'm some what inclined to agree with you Pac man. I don't blame the pilot what I don't agree with is generalizations that because of skin color, religion, ethnic origin etc make a person good or bad.

Not all Italians are Mafia. I have lots of relatives who aren't.

 

Are you serious? Sounds like a concept from Minority Report where we're going to arrest people before they commit crimes.

 

Believe it or not, I agree with Pac man here. When you've got a higher risk group, you take more precautions with that group. Sure we're going to regret it later when they become lower risk (attitudes change with generations, and each person can only blow themselves up once) and the authorities can't break the habit, but that too will pass. And for now it's a good idea to be more suspicious of a group where a person belonging to that group is more likely to do something.

Is it racism? Well, I suppose it is; racial profiling has the word 'racial' right in it, after all. Is it bad? Well, people can obviously make mistakes, but on the whole I think it's beneficial for the moment. Then again, I can't be completely sure, since it's tiger rock logic*, but it does seem like it's working. Putting myself in their position - let's say Kaczynski(sp?) had started a big trend - I'd be incredibly annoyed, but would attempt to console myself with the thought that it might help catch actual criminals.

*Tiger rock logic:
"You see this rock? It protects you from tigers."
"What? How the heck does it do that?"
"Well, I don't see any tigers around here, do you?"

 

Did you read that between the lines or something, because i never said something like that ? You can't go arrest people before they do anything, unless there's reasonable doubt they are planning something. What i said was that the nutty ones don't make themselves known until they are about to act. Until they do, they are like the average John Doe. Take the 9-11 guys for instance, they were all well respected students from reasonable wealthy families. Nobody suspected anything, their neighbours all thought they were very nice well mannered young boys and were shocked to find out they were the ones who hijacked the planes.

So now we know they are among the nutty ones, except when we found out it was too late. Point being...there may be a nutty one living right across the street from you, and you'll never know until it's too late. Deception is one of the easier things in life, especially when there's so many naive people in the world who keep thinking that islam is a peaceful religeon, and just because they only know friendly muslims there is no danger lurking nearby.

 

Every religion has nutty and evil people. For example, the Zionist Jews are at the top of that list. And there are some Christians who assume they are crusaders. If Islam was a religion of terrorism most of the people in the world won't be here because about 1/5 of the world is Muslim see this . 1.1 billion suicide bombers can destroy all the world.

And about generalization: it is one of the most widwspread logical fallacies and shouldn't be done by educated people. Even in the most basic composition lessons, it is taught making generalizations will show you "at least not sophisticated and intellectual enough". And racism is one of the biggest generalizations.

And Islam is one of the most peaceful religions. If you know a little history, you will see that. If somebody says it isn't, please write something from Koran to support the argument.

Here are 2 quotes from Ann Coulter:

After that, can I say "This woman is Christian and all the Christians think like her. Let's hate all the Christians." Generalizations are bad, especially if you want others to listen to you. I can say neither all Christians want to destroy Muslims nor Christianity is a religion of Barbarism, terrorism and foolishness because of her.

[ August 28, 2006, 00:27: Message edited by: Argohir ]

 

That's true, but I'm not going to treat him any differently from anyone else, just in case he might be going to blow me up some time in the future. The cost to society of having everyone being paranoid and suspicious is huge. That's what caused all the problems with the witchhunts in the 1950s (and 17th century Massachussets).

 

As you wish...

ANNOUNCE PAINFUL PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE (9:3)

O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred... (8:65)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah...And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah's curse be on them; how they are turned away!" (Koran 9:29-30)

And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah (8:39)

When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM (8:71)

FIGHT THEM: ALLAH WILL PUNISH THEM BY YOUR HANDS AND BRING THEM TO DISGRACE, AND ASSIST YOU AGAINST THEM. (9:14)

FIGHT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, NOR FOLLOW THE RELIGION OF TRUTH, OUT OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE BOOK [Christians and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and THEY ARE IN A STATE OF SUBJECTION. (9:29)

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination. (9:73)

O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (9:123)

I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER - THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS - TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day - unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company - then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)

And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors. Is it then the judgment of the times of ignorance that they desire: and who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure? O YOU WHO BELIEVE! DO NOT TAKE THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS FOR FRIENDS; THEY ARE FRIENDS OF EACH OTHER; AND WHOEVER AMONGST YOU TAKES THEM FOR A FRIEND, THEN SURELY HE IS ONE OF THEM; SURELY ALLAH DOES NOT GUIDE THE UNJUST PEOPLE. (5:49-51)

The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power (5:33-34)

Believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one god: far be it from his glory that He should have a son. (4:171)

What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. THEY DESIRE THAT YOU SHOULD DISBELIEVE AS THEY HAVE DISBELIEVED, SO THAT YOU MIGHT BE ALL ALIKE; THEREFORE TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM FRIENDS UNTIL THEY FLY THEIR HOMES IN ALLAH'S WAY; BUT IF THEY TURN BACK, THEN SEIZE THEM AND KILL THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM A FRIEND OR A HELPER. (4:89)

As for those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the punishment (4:56)

Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah - they shall have a severe punishment; and Allah is Mighty, the lord of retribution. (3:4)

Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)" (Hadith 4:52:196)

Allah's Apostles said, "When a slave (of Allah) commits illegal sexual intercourse, he is not a believer at the time of committing it; and if he steals, he is not a believer at the time of stealing; and if he drinks an alcoholic drink, when he is not a believer at the time of drinking it; and he is not a believer when he commits a murder," 'Ikrima said: I asked Ibn Abbas, "How is faith taken away from him?" He said, Like this," by clasping his hands and then separating them, and added, "But if he repents, faith returns to him like this, by clasping his hands again. (Hadith 8:82:800e [So, with the clap of a hand, they can do whatever they want?]

The Prophet said, "The one who commits an illegal sexual intercourse is not a believer at the time of committing illegal sexual intercourse and a thief is not a believer at the time of committing theft and a drinker of alcoholic drink is not a believer at the time of drinking. Yet, (the gate of) repentance is open thereafter." (Hadith 8:82:801)

(Isolated incident) ...then prostrated himself, and all who were with him prostrated too. But an old man took a handful of dust and touched his forehead with it saying, "This is sufficient for me." Later on I saw him killed as an infidel. (Hadith 5:59:311)

[yes the Jews and Muslims are both descendents of Abraham, but here is the attitude towards descendants of Abraham through Isaac (the Jews]: "If they find you, they will be your enemies, and will stretch forth towards you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they ardently desire that you may disbelieve. Your relationship would not profit you, nor your children, on the day of resurrection; He will decide between you; and Allah sees what you do. Indeed, there is for you a good example in Abraham and those with him when they said to their people: Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah; WE DECLARE OURSELVES TO BE CLEAR OF YOU, AND ENMITY AND HATRED HAVE APPEARED BETWEEN US AND YOU FOREVER UNTIL YOU BELIEVE IN ALLAH ALONE (60:2-4)

Need more ?

And just for the record...the crusades have stopped ages ago, it's becoming a bit tiresome to be confronted with ancient history at every possible angle.

And i also know that there are rotten apples in Christianity and Judaism as well, but that was not the issue here. The issue was that people are always claiming Islam to be a peaceful religeon, and i'd like to counter that with the above quotes, and my own personal belief that there is no such thing as a peaceful religeon. But that's another topic.

 

On a side note, I understand the logic where you are more cautious towards a certain group of people. Its only natural (who can deny that they have never stereotype or generalise a group before? I can't say that I haven't) and with the way things are, its unavoidable.

I just do not think that the action taken in this case is justified however, from what little I can gather about this incident. Since they are the victims in this case and no bombs were found on them, and noone can prove that they act suspiciously with the purpose of terrorising, I give them the benefit of doubt.

 

And here are mine:

The Cow
[2.11] And when it is said to them, Do not make mischief in the land, they say: We are but peace-makers.
[2.224] And make not Allah because of your swearing (by Him) an obstacle to your doing good and guarding (against evil) and making peace between men, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
The Women
[4.90] Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
The Cattle
[6.54] And when those who believe in Our communications come to you, say: Peace be on you, your Lord has ordained mercy on Himself, (so) that if any one of you does evil in ignorance, then turns after that and acts aright, then He is Forgiving, Merciful.
The Accessions
[8.61] And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
Jonah
[10.25] And Allah invites to the abode of peace and guides whom He pleases into the right path.
The Holy Prophet
[11.48] It was said: O Nuh! descend with peace from Us and blessings on you and on the people from among those who are with you, and there shall be nations whom We will afford provisions, then a painful punishment from Us shall afflict them.
The Thunder
[13.24] Peace be on you because you were constant, how excellent, is then, the issue of the abode.
Marium
[19.47] He said: Peace be on you, I will pray to my Lord to forgive you; surely He is ever Affectionate to me:
[19.62] They shall not hear therein any vain discourse, but only: Peace, and they shall have their sustenance therein morning and evening.
Ta Ha
[20.47] So go you both to him and say: Surely we are two apostles of your Lord; therefore send the children of Israel with us and do not torment them! Indeed we have brought to you a communication from your Lord, and peace is on him who follows the guidance;
Yasin
[36.58] Peace: a word from a Merciful Lord.
Ornaments of Gold
[43.89] So turn away from them and say, Peace, for they shall soon come to know.

"Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them" (4: 90).


"There must be no coercion in matters of faith!" (2: 256).


Muslims may not begin hostilities (2: 190). Warfare is always evil, but sometimes you have to fight in order to avoid the kind of persecution that Mecca inflicted on the Muslims (2: 191; 2: 217) or to preserve decent values (4: 75; 22: 40). The Koran quotes the Torah, the Jewish scriptures, which permits people to retaliate eye for eye, tooth for tooth, but like the Gospels, the Koran suggests that it is meritorious to forgo revenge in a spirit of charity (5: 45). Hostilities must be brought to an end as quickly as possible and must cease the minute the enemy sues for peace (2: 192-3).

Want more? And I can find sentences of war from Christianity and Judaism. There are no connection between Islam and terrorism.

 

Once again...Christianity and Judaism are not the issue here, and like i said, i know there's something wrong with those religeons too, but they are not the ones who have been hijacking planes and blow up trains and busses lately, stick to the issue at hand please.

You come up with passages that seem peaceful, i came up with passages that are hateful. If they are both from the same book, than wouldn't you say that that book is one big contradiction of itself ?

 

Actually, I believe that the extremist Muslim terrorists would claim that Christians are continually bombing innocent Islamic countries and meddling in world affairs and causing misery and death to millions of people. They claim that their actions are not solely due to what their religion tells them to do. Many of them would claim that Christians "started it".

It's all like a bunch of kids in a playground really.

 

Well, considering the track record of the 'Christian countries' (Alittle difficult here, but I assume that to them that would be US and UK primarily and perhaps the other members of the coalition), its not difficult to see how they came to that conclusion.

Of course, I am not taking sides here nor am I pointing fingers.

 

"you believe" and "they claim" don't work for me, and don't hide the fact that every earlier mentioned issue was caused by Islamic fundamentalists, including the topic of this thread.

if it only were kids in a playground. Kids sometimes smack eachother around a bit, but they don't blow eachother to pieces.