new guy here. couple questions

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Most races offer 76 points to distribute among the 6 stats, only a few special races offer 74, 78 or 80.

A party like this should grant a nearly optimal experience playing through the game. Stay strong and avoid crippling your casters by multiclassing, you'll only rob yourself of casting power.
Don't forget that IWD2 -although it features the same engine- uses totally different rules than BG2. Now there's a huge difference between 7 and 14 in a stat instead of no difference like in 2e,
When multiclassing you don't get 9-11 levels for the XP of one level any more, each level in the second class costs a full level in the first. Unlike in BG2 strebgth isn't useless anymore, it's the most important for warriors now.


Pure paladin is powerful, mixing in 4 fighter levels for weapon specialisation looks tempting but the +2 specialisation damage is lousy in comparison to the 4 extra smite damage and the spell access you loose (the holy power spell adds another +4 to damage.
The best races for paladin are half-orc, dwarf or aasimar. Strength is the most important stat, 13 dex is essential for rapid shot and other combat feats, con is more important than charisma, int is useless and you need 14 wis to be able to cast level 4 spells at level 15, more isn't needed. If you think you can raise this stat with equipment you can start with 12-13, but if you have to raise it at level up instead of str it's bad.


A pure 3e rogue is already like a 2e fighter/rogue in terms of combat power. The biggest benefit you gain for multiclassing are profiency in all weapons for the first and ability to specialize for the 4th fighter level. The more rogue levels you take the harder you hit since you gain 1-6 extra sneak attack damage every two levels. Starting from rogue level 10 you get an extra feat every 3 rogue levels which you can spend for special rogue feats like improved evasion.
Most important stat is str, followed by dex and con. You'll need about 12-14 int for the skills, cha is useless, wis not useful enough to lower physical stats.


Make sure your cleric isn't evil so you can change memorized spells into healing spells. I had a dwarf battleguard of Tempus who maximized str, con and wis and minimized int and cha who was extremely powerful.


For the druid it's nice if he gets 2 skillpoints per level so he can both maximize concentration and put enough points into spellcraft to be able to take the scion of storms feat (20 percent extra damage is nice). For a human even 3 int is enough, other races need 10.
Best race is therefore human followed by elf and shield dwarf.
Most important stat is wis followed by con. Take at least 14 dex. Dump cha and if you play human dump int too, else take 10.
I'd start with the rapid shot feat. Best spell feats are GSF transmutation and scion of storms.


Bard songs are extremely powerful with the lingering song feat. Even if the bard couldn't cast spells or do other things but singing, the additional damage party members do or other song effects would be enough to justify having a bard in the party.
For perfect diplomacy the best race is aasimar which allows both to start with 20 cha and the "mercantile background" feat. With 20 cha you already have 5 skill ranks in all diplomatic skills without spending a single point, when you raise cha at level up and use the eagle's splendor spell it will be even more. You don't have to spend many skill points for the diplomatic skills to get all the skill based dialogue options.
Therefore 12 int which grants 3 skill points per level should be enough to handle the 3 diplomatic skills, knowledge (arcana) and alchemy for the party (But more skill points don't hurt).
At creation I'd spend 1 point into knowledge and alchemy since they are trained only and distribute the remaining 10 points into the 3 diplomatic skills since there are many dialogues in the prologue.
I'd take 18 con for the hitpoints and at least 14 dex for the defense. Since the songs are too good to interrupt them for fighting once you gained a few levels strength is only important for carrying capacity. 10 is enough, even 8-9 aren't bad. Wis is nearly useless and therefore best dumped to 5-6.


Like the druid the sorcerer needs both concentration and spellcraft, for 2 skill points per level you need either a human with 3 int or another race with 12 int. Best race is thererfore obviously human. Since wis can be dumped to the minimum it shouldn't be a problem to get high values in the important stats.

 

a 1/2-orc paladin? don't they get a -2 to cha?

 

a few comments

13DEX is good for Dodge, but I wouldn't advise anyone to take ranged feats at all. Ranged weapons are unreliable in Heart of Fury mode (see below). And if you want your warriors to dual wield properly, you'll need 15DEX for the Ambidexterity or Two-Weapon Fighting feat.

Good comments on the rogue, I never used a high level rogue in the game, so it's worth a try.

You mean you need 12 for the +1 modifier. 1 (base) + 1 (INT bonus)

12

Rapid shot boosts the amount of ranged attacks you make by 1 per round at the price of a -2 to attack bonus. A questionable trade-off in itself. At high level when you'll make 5 attack/round, you'll wonder if 4 attacks per round with +2 to attack isn't better...
This is a good opportunity to talk about Heart of Fury mode. When you finish the game, your party of six will at least be level 16. Then you can import these mid-level characters to a new game, but this game is Heart of Fury enhanced! Every enemy get 10 levels extra, have high attack bonuses now (armour class becomes useless, Tactics4IWD2 can remedy this), and get high damage reductions. The damage reduction is the issue here: Ranged attacks don't do as much damage as melee, you'll have trouble hitting powerful enemies at all.
I get the feeling a high level rogue won't be useful in HoF mode, as when they're badly hurt, all they can do is flee from melee, and futilely fire arrows.

Same thing: you'll need 14INT.
The best class to maximize CHA with is sorcerer, since it gives high spell DC, and sorcerers have many offensive spells. Maximizing CHA with a paladin doesn't do much for the spells, as healing and buff spells don't need high DC. Also, this is at the expense of improving your warrior skills (CON is best, STR good too).

Spoiler

BTW paladins don't accept rewards.

Hmm, this bard would have 2 tactical options: Sing and cast spells. I guess it's OK. I'd advise you to bump up the warrior stats though if you can. I personally like all my party members to be versatile enough to fight in melee when necessary, even mages!

I agree. Dump WIS and INT, and put the remainder in warrior stats. You should end up with: 16-18-18-3-3-18, or 18-16-18-3-3-18

half-orc isn't too bad actually. it can still start with 16CHA, and 20STR! As I said, you don't need to maximize CHA, because a high DC doesn't help when healing and buffing. Personally I'd go for the dwarf's 20CON, more hitpoints always helps.
My main issue with paladins is that they need both WIS and CHA for spellcasting, and their spellbook is lousy anyway. Plus that it's a warrior build, so when min-maxing, you end up with mediocre/poor DEX to accomodate WIS and CHA. Not good for a warrior.

 

This bard has also the options to fight in melee or attack ranged quite well, but it's unnecessary at higher levels since the songs are so powerful.


About and
You obviously need to learn IWD2 game mechanics:

- bards and druids get 2 skill points per level if they have no int or racial modifier, therefore a non-human druid with 10 int gets 2 skill points per level, and an aasimar bard with 12 int gets 3 skill points per level.

- You don't understand how rapid shot works either. It's extremely powerful. Even if you wouldn't get an extra attack you'd hit better with it at higher levels. The first rapid shot attack is worse by 2 than the normal, but the second and all following rapid shot attacks are better by 3 than the coresponding normal attacks. An example for comparison:
Normal attack bonuses: +16/+11/+6/+1
With rapid shot: +14/+14/+9/+4/-1
The average AB of the first 4 attacks is better by 1,75 and you even get a free extra attack.
It's an easy calculation that using rapid shot is beneficial for a low level druid with only 1 base attack per round using a sling too.

- HoF monsters have more hitpoints but usually don't get more damage reduction than normal mode monsters. Ranged weapons are especially useful in HoF mode when you want to keep your warriors away from the front line where you usually have your summons fight.
Since all ranged weapons except bows and crossbows grant a strength bonus and strength is easy to boost with spells like champion's strength it's usually no problem to overcome 15 damage reduction with the HoF weapons, especially with the help of the bard song and other luck/damage increasing magic.

Even a paladin with 1 cha is doable. Cha for paladins is overrated, especially the bonus to saving throws it grants. You don't have to make very many saves and it doesn't matter at all if your save bonus is perfect+10 or perfect+15.
Extra strength is more useful. Doing so much damage per hit that you can laugh about the 15 damage reduction some bosses have is what makes warriors superior to summons.
Another good race for paladin is wild elf since you can dump int to 1 and get 2 extra stat points to distribute.

 

i usually use missile weapons first and then switch to melle once the enemy gets to close so i'll probably go with the ranged feats over melee ones. at least to start. i know in ID missile weapons were my best friend
not sure if i'll be attempting heart of furymode. i usually have a hard enough time with the game itself without making it harder

is there a feat improved two weapon fighting? i know there is in ToEE and it requires 17 dex IIRC.

sounds like making a paladin is the wrong choice since he gets crappy spells and a basic fighter gets more feats. or am i misreading what you have said?

 

Wow I didn't realize that the skillpoint bonus started at 10 INT, I always assumed it would start at 12 (the +1 modifier for skill checks). I never tried a character with medium intelligence before, because I'm a powergamer. I didn't believe you at first, but I went and tried, and you're right. Amazing that I can still learn things after playing for so long!
Sorry if looked condescending.
But do bards and druids get 2 skillpoints per level? You're assuming 10INT has no modifier, so below 10 gets a -1 modifier, that's what you mean right? A non-human bard or druid with 9 INT still gets only 1 skillpoint.

OK, for attack bonus there is an overall advantage, but it's the low damage that is the chokepoint for ranged weapons. You can roll a hit, and your damage may still not get past damage reduction.

In my experience HoF monsters have between 5 and 30 damage reduction for the most common damage types. As you said, the most common ranged weapons (bows and crossbows) don't get a strength damage bonus (although the powerful bows compensate), so the damage stays low, and rarely gets past damage reduction. Most of the time I get "Monster is immune to my piercing damage"
The returning throwing weapons aren't impressive either: Since they can't be launched from a powerful bow with attack and damage bonus, they have more chance of rolling a miss.

Good point, but hitpoints are just as important, since your warrior isn't expendable like a summon: Casting resurrection is more troublesome than summoning another meat shield, and you may not be able to re-equip your gear. A warrior with 18STR + Bull's or Champion's strength does plenty of damage, and has more of a window for clerics to cast heal. 2 of my 3 frontliners are clerics themselves, with maxed constitution.

But this is just my experience playing Heart of Fury mode Insane difficulty. When such monsters do double damage, you need powergamed battleclerics.

 

There is only a limited number of really useful feats, so at higher level the fighters will have to pick mediocre feats. That makes paladins with a few half-decent spells (with a wis of around 14) and possibly good saving throw bonuses (if cha is good, but that will weaken some other stats) about equally good as fighters. Ranger is the only fighter-type class that is somewhat worse than the three other, but enev then it's not by much.

Bards and druids get 2 skill points/lvl.

 

Dude, are you deliberately trying to confuse me, or just winding me up? I look stupid enough as it is already. You just made me go create 9 INT druid and bard, and cheat them up a level.
It's unlikely but possible that I have a mod installed which changes it, but I'm confusing myself now.
Non-human, non-rogue characters with 9- INT get 1 skillpt./lvl!

 

Missile weapons are very useful in IWD2. Rapid shot is the only useful ranged feat. It doesn't work with crossbows however.

There's no improved two weapon fighting, you only get one attack with the off hand. Since two handed weapons do far more base damage than 1-handed and you get more strength bonus damage TWF isn't very good at the beginning and becomes worse and worse the more base attacks you get.

A paladin has his advantages. You are immune to fear, have the aura of courage, get the charisma bonus to saving throws and other paladin abilities, use the holy avenger and have a far bigger damage potential. You can use "smite evil", which adds the character level to damage. When you reach paladin level 15 you can cast holy power which adds +4 to damage.
The only important fighter advantage is that you can specialize in a weapon for +2 damage. There aren't many very useful feats, being able to take an additional feat for +3 HP every 2 levels doesn't help much.

 

guess i'll stick with my original plan:

aasimar paladin
tiefling fighter/rogue (debating on going barbarian instead of fighter)
gold dwarf cleric
1/2-orc druid
human bard
drow sorcerer

any advice?

 

From what I have seen the game gives about half the number of skill points that the class normally received in 3.0. Barbarians, druids, rangers, bards, and the like receive 2 points while fighters, clerics, wizards, and the like receive 1. Rogues get 4 and you receive extra points = to your int bonus. Humans get an additional point that is added after your int mod so even if you have a 3 int you still will get 2 skills.

 

Your party sounds almost identical to the one I'm using in my current play through. Should be a lot of fun for you.

Care to let us see the stats for those characters? Are you planning on using "powergaming" or "roleplaying" (or a mix of each)?

 

My opinion about them remains unchanged: they're too unreliable in HoF mode for dealing damage, melee and spellcasting is the way to go. This is irrelevant for akridian as he says he won't play HoF, but I think this will change if he likes the game, and his party.

By the way, I think the roles are reversed in IWD2 compared with BG2. You're no longer a band of warriors fighting powerful mages by rushing up to them and killing them ASAP, in IWD2 you're a group of spellcasters using your spells wisely to protect you against hordes of powerful monsters attacking you. This requires more tactical thought, and is another reason I love the game!

I know, for your average fighter a greataxe, greatsword or halberd would deal the most damage. But especially for spellcasters there's another consideration: Bonus effects. If you equip 2 weapons, you get the bonuses from both. Now just equipping them doesn't require you to dual wield properly, as you can just switch to a 2-handed weapon when you want to attack something, but in my experience this is just too much hassle, so I consider my weapons for bonuses and best damage. It's also very handy for fighters too. Considerable spoilers below:

Spoiler

The Improved Bastard Swords component from Ease-of-use make dual wielding these worth considering, probably even better than 2 handed weapons. Many get great bonuses:
Bloody Wroth (HoF) double the effects of Animal Rage, good for the off-hand when you're out of barbarian rages.
Rage of Chaos: Chaotic Commands when equipped, another off-hander vs. mages.
Know thy Family (HoF): Executioner's Eyes when equipped, this effect carries over to the main hand, this is the best off hand weapon under most circumstances.
Cold Fire: 1d10+3, 3d6fire, 3d6cold, a main hand weapon.
Bastard Sword of Heroism (HoF): 4d10+3 (+5enchanted), the best main hander.

A full fighter isn't my cup of tea either, but the amount of feats non-fighters get still leaves you wanting. There are always good feats for non-fighters, and dilemma's for leveling up. Actually, leveling choices is my favourite aspect of the game, that's why I think fighter's many feats spoil this. But you can always have your fighter specialize in more weapon types, then you'll have a fighter with all the feats needed to use a weapon. My advice would be to stick with 4 levels fighter as a mix in for your frontline warriors (not your spellcasters, as this costs them too many levels), and perhaps 1 level mix-in for spellcasters later on, for the extra feat and proficiencies.
Clerics are the best frontline fighter because they can buff and heal themselves. Barbarians can take plenty of punishment (take the Male Fighter 2 voiceset: "Ow, is that the best you can do?" ). Next up is Paladin for the numerous miscellaneous bonuses and spellcasting, not to mention extra (force-talk) conversation options. Fighters at least get the extra feats to compensate. Rangers come in last, with a poor spell book and attack bonuses vs. selected monsters.

 

7/10 for powergaming, 9/10 for roleplaying. Don't forget the 4 fighter levels!

5/10. Yeah, this is a strange build for me. A warrior needing high INT and DEX is a troublesome one. Fighter/thieves in 2e were good, but not so much in 3e.

10/10. A GOOD frontliner, max out your STR and CON (and choose one of these to advance at level ups) and you'll have a worthy battlecleric. I can't tell you which cleric order to choose, because you'll be installing alternate cleric orders. 4 levels fighter or course, you can delay this if you want cleric spells early.

6/10. Yeah why not? You have 4 ways to go here:
1) After taking 10pts. in spellcraft to gain elemental feats (Spirit of Flame and Scion of Storms are best for druid), you can focus on concentration. This will give you sub-optimal concentration, and everyone agrees this isn't good.
2) You can take 10INT and have 2 skillpts. per level, plenty for both required skills, and some extra to put into sneaking for example.
3) You don't take elemental feats, and stick with just 100% damage for fire and electrical spells instead of 120%
4) You can alter your character for the path of least resistance and take a human, who get 2 skillpts/lvl regardless of low INT.

8/10. I've never tried Summon Djinni or Efreeti. Bard certainly adds charm to your spellcasting. Human is good so you can add some minor mix-ins to your liking.

6/10. Good for spell resistance, bur SR is most useful for your frontliners, who'll be in the blast radius of your attack spells. The 2 level disadvantage is BAD for your main spellcaster, crippling even if you're into powerleveling. You have 2 mix-in options with Drow, neither of them useful, so you'd better be sure you want to abandon the idea of mix-ins for it.

 

I usually use a Sorcerer as my party spokesperson and leader, because they have naturally high charisma, so I just invest a few points in intelligence and a feat in mercantile background for the discount.

 

that's the plan

sorry. can't show you. havn't gotten the game yet

should i go for the 4 levels of paladin first? as for powergaming/roleplaying, i plan to do a mix.

should i go just rogue instead?

when should i take the 4 levels of fighter?

i plan on having this as my speaker.

what would i want to mix in with my main caster?

 

If you plan to use a rogue, yes. That is to say, rogue's best feature is their sneak attack. if you plan on using it, then yes, take rogue levels.

Personally I dont feel the rogue class has much to offer, so I usually create a drow rogue, then start levelling him up as a wizard instead. he will have the skill points he needs to disarm the traps and pick the locks in the game, while also being a potent spellcaster (which I feel is more valuable than the odd sneak attack).

I would say monks make better mix in classes than rogues, because you get evasion at level 1, and also can add your wisdom modifier to AC if you are unarmored. good for clerics usually.

Depends what you want! If you only need 11 levels of bard for decent spell casting and a decent song, consider putting some levels into another spell caster, such as sorcerer, wizard or druid. A popular combo (for a lawful good character only) is a Paladin level, which lets you add your charisma modifier to your saving throws.

 

i have to admit i have rarely used sneak attack in any game i have played. just don't like the idea of getting my rogue into the fight before everyone else. good way to get killed. but what about traps? i've heard that they are pretty weak and that most (if not all) locks can be bashed in. are there any locks that can't be bashed in? any with good loot at least?

 

A comment on sneak attack: it definitely depends on your playing style. I, for one, love it and find it very useful. In my current party I've got a bard/rogue who handles diplomacy and theiving skills and the occassional sneak attack.

I've also got a cleric (Half-Orc Battleguard) and a ranger (Tiefling) with rogue mix-ins who specialize in two-handed weapons. Concentrate on maximizing STR (netiher build requires too much DEX) and these guys are damage-dealing powerhouses when it comes to SA.

That being said, any build that adds 1 or 2 levels or rogue should be able to handle any of the traps in this game (unless you've got Light of Selune installed).

 

where can i find info about the "additional" classes? the manual only has the basic classes in it. it doesn't cover classes like the battleguard.