One Nation Under God

Remove all ads!

Hmmm. Here I stop reading and I come back to find I'm accused of speaking out of both sides of my mouth. Lovely.

The objection to removing the phrase "under God" is not because I want everyone to be forced to say it -- all are free to leave the school in which your child is supposedly cooerced into acknowledging that there just might be more to the world than is explainable by science.

As I've stated before: the Supreme Court is all over the place with regard to establishment of religion. It is wildly inconsistent, as even the most casual of obsevers can see. Thus, to base your assumptions (about what I "must" think) on Supreme Court precedent is to start from shaky ground and procede rapidly to the ridiculous.

 

I agree with what Xaelifer said.

[This message has been edited by Frog (edited July 24, 2002).]

 

Ah, Shralp -- good to see you again. Though you espouse majority views -- and ones I disagree with -- you state them so well that you are a treat to argue with.

I love this, by the way. I love arguing with intelligent people. Why do people get all touchy? It's fun, fun, fun.

Not to butter you up, or anything, though -- because you are still wrong, wrong, wrong.

You say that the Supreme Court is inconsistent on religion issues. As far as I can tell, it is consistently against any activity even a little religious in the public schools. (If you have a link that will set me straight on this, be my guest.) To any one who reads the sources I cited, regardless of their own views, it must appear that Newdow is quite right that Under God is unconstitutional. People may of course still think it's a positive thing and should stay there -- the Constitution does not dictate Morality, merely law -- but unconstitutional it is.

As you say, however some feel that coercing public schoolchildren "into acknowledging that there just might be more to the world than is explainable by science" is a good thing. I disagree. I myself utterly reject that there could maybe just possibly be *anything* else in the world that cannot be meaningfully analyzed. The prayer link I posted sums up my views there. It is intellectually lazy, and I am not willing to admit defeat yet.

But who cares? My religious beliefs, and your religious beliefs, are irrelevant at school. Or should be. Right? If you *don't* think so, then by all means, send your own kids to a religious schoolL I believe, along with the architects of the country -- Christians almost all -- that religion has no place in public school, and that linking patriotism to religion is especially pernicious.

 

For once, I'm going to agree with you Methyl, patriotism should not be linked to religion.

Shralp is correct however, the Supreme Court is on both sides of the fence when it comes to the religion issue. I will give an example of this. Back several years ago in Oklahoma, a teacher got sued for teaching only evolution (the scientific principle) and not creationism (the religious principle). The lawsuit was upheld, and it was determined that creationism should be taught in schools. Between that and the examples you cited, it would appear that there are no legal standards for this form of a debate.

There you go again, Methyl, mentioning coercion. I disagree with your use of this word. Children are not forced to agree with any of their instructors at school. They are free to disagree, and in fact, encouraged to do so. They are encouraged to make up their own minds about debates and such after hearing both sides of the argument. This is the proper way of handling such an issue, wouldn't you agree?

 

What your arguments are lacking is an opinion from a schoolchild. I being one, am glad to add mine.

The pledge is something you learn in 1st grade then not think anything of it. In my school, The pledge is apart of the morning announcements. Everyday, I get up and say it with my classmates and don’t really think anything of it, and neither do they.

As mentioned in Shralp’s first post, the guy’s daughter had no problem saying the pledge in the first place. The same is true for most school children. A friend of mine, who is a Jehovah’s Witness, would not stand up and say the pledge because it goes against her religion. She didn’t care one way or the other. Then her mother found out it was being said, and put up a huge stink about it. The school, being afraid of a law suit, took out the pledge from the announcements. When we made the cross over from middle school to high school, the pledge was said again in the morning announcements, but this time, my friends “forgot” to tell her mother about it.

IMO, I think we should keep the pledge the way it is and still say it in the public school system. The kids don’t care, and they don’t have to say it if they don’t want to.

 

The way I see America is as a very diverse places. People with many racial, cultural, and traditional origins. Many religions. One nation under God? Which one? What about atheists? Polytheists?

 

Ahem. I was reading the New Yorker (a highly prestigious and sometimes satirical New York magazine) and there was a hilarious quote in it by Robin Williams, and it went somewhere along the lines of this:

I found it quite amusing.

 

I generally just don't say it. Or I alter it to my beliefs. I don't think it's a big deal either way, but if people really care about it that much why not take it out? Is it really hurting anything? After all, it wasn't in there to begin with, as I'm sure has been mentioned. The nation needs to be able to evolve to survive. Religion is no longer a part of government, and so it should be.

 

Hehe SlimShogun
I would go so far as to rephrase Robin Williams:
In or into a condition of subection, subordination, or unconsciousness to Canada

[ August 14, 2002, 13:33: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

 

One evil thing people say about the pledge is that it grows huge numbers of unreflecting patriots, eager to carry the blessed american way of life even into the most remote corners of the world ... and if they don't want their Pepsi there, they don't mind about dropping the cans there with bombs ... weeeeee! Coke for everyone! Now others say patriotism has never done any harm to everyone Should they be wrong? Hah! 100+ million people can't be wrong, right?

[ August 14, 2002, 12:13: Message edited by: Ragusa ]

 

Ragusa, you must be thinking of a different country. Ours doesn't grow unreflecting patriotism because of pledge that some say in school sometimes.

PH33R OUR NATIONAL PRIDE, GERMAN SCUM!

[Edit]
Oh, yay! Violet said I expose majority views! I'm not an extremist anymore! Wheeee!]

[ August 14, 2002, 16:43: Message edited by: Shralp ]

 

Ha! Thanks Nobleman - we could use an 11th province And you'll like our beer. Now, if we can only find 350 million plus skates and hockey sticks....

 

Ragusa, Its 270 million and counting, bub. You better watch your ass.

[ August 15, 2002, 05:09: Message edited by: SlimShogun ]

 

I refuse to say the pledge they make us say it in school lucky I had a cool teacher so we did not have to say it if we did not want to. But, I do not believe in god as I have expressed many time so I will note say, "one nation under god". I do not think they should get rid of that part though for two reasons.
It's historical.
That pledge sometimes helps people pull through things like the the incedent on Sept. 11.