POLL: Premarital Sex

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Sarevok - Speaking as a mod, I'm not going to attack you because we disagree about the nature of marriage. And it may be slightly off-topic but the context is perfectly valid with our topic regarding sex before marriage - and maybe the lack of it afterwards, if I am understanding you right. And, if I am reading you right, it is not marriage itself, but the demise of many marriages that is the problem. People get bored with each other for various reasons, some still relating to sex, so they decide to move on. It also seems that you are saying that people get married for the wrong reasons. There's nothing new with that idea, since people do that all the time, and as you point out, the fair amount of doomed marriages proves that point.

But what you fail to notice is that the odds are actually 50/50, since that's pretty close to the ratio. So for all the bad marriages you point out, there are just about as many successful marriages as well. I can't see inside all those marriages, and neither can you, so I can only say that if a marriage is lasting that it is some measure of success. If you are saying that marriages don't last because people get married for the wrong reasons, you are merely stating the obvious. Yet, almost nothing you've come up with proves that there is anything wrong with marriage itself, only that a lot of people get it wrong. In that we agree.

I am not poorer because of my famliy, but richer. It seems my luck has been quite good, thank you.

[ April 06, 2006, 06:45: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]

 

Everyone here, call me a ****ing cold-hearted, self-centered bastard if it makes you feel good, I won't even hold a grudge against you, but tell you what, I'm with Sarevok all the way. What he is saying is the reflect of today's hypersexualized, love fast-food society. Chev and I already discussed that in RRB thread, it doesen't work with your partner, or a better specimen comes along, time to upgrade. And what about the said kids being ping-ponged between parents? It's a sad thing, but it seems that in today's society, having kids is a relationship's doom. Of course that's not the case for every relationships, but it is so for the big majority of the said relationships. Just looking at the same hypersexualized, love fast-food society makes me shivers. Uh-huh. I'm not embarking in that gammick.

I completly second Sarevok on what he has said so far. /waits to be flamed

 

No, actually, I still think the number is 50/50. Again you have only echoed Savevok in that a lot of marriages fail, (and that's a bad thing) but you have not been able to refute the institution itself. Btw, I seem to remember reading once that single people have a higher level of stress than those who are married. Still, I would be interested to see some real, recent, numbers regarding marriage and stress.

 

I'll echo Chandos on the numbers as someone who is f***ing tired of hearing people (mostly the religious right) b**** about how "half of all marriages end in divorce". Well people don't always pick perfectly and what of the other half, hmm? Not to mention individuals throwing the curve. A marriage that doesn't end can only possibly count once, while serial monogamists can marry and divorce over and over and over. My parents alone have three to their credit (their own and another for each of them), and they were very careful about not getting married too early. Now just imagine what those who don't care rack up. (Don't even get me started on celebrity "minute marriages". )

That's actually not so recent, and brings up the genetic basis for your argument that actually began in the time of the caveman. One sexual myth is the "Seven Year Itch", which turns out to actually be a five year 'itch'. The evolutionary benefit of this was to keep the couple together long enough to produce and start raising a child to the point where the mother would be able to take on the role by herself while the father went out to sow some more oats. (Sorry if the roles aren't PC, but...) A compromise between rapid breeding and survival of offspring which helped the survival of the species.

Considering this, I look at a lasting marriage as a sign of maturity. That we have progressed beyond the mere instinct of attraction that so many confuse with true love, and have discovered a deeper level to help us overcome our heritage. If you can't seem to get over it, I will simultaneously pity you and cheer you for your immaturity, as well as mourning your loss at never knowing a lasting relationship while smiling wryly at all the fun you're going to have being single. I guess what I'm trying to say is that either choice is a tradeoff, but I'm less inclined to respect those who say "can't" or "won't". Nothing's impossible, no matter who you are.

 

I'm not going to flame you, but just point out that all the people that I know and am friends with and the people in my family at various generations are all happily married without any of the bad things that you are complaining about. And none of us are like that because of religious beliefs either. The point is that there may be a hypersexualised fast food society out there, but you can choose to not be a part of it. And that choice does not have be based on staying away from marriage completely. If my marriage ever broke up, then it would not be the fault of some faceless 'society'. It would be purely the fault of me and my wife.

It makes me sad to see young people become so disillusioned that they choose to opt out of something special.

 

And maybe this is smugness borne of age, but I can't help but wonder how these answers would change - and the answers in Fel's poll about kids - if we asked the same people the same questions 10 or more years from now.

 

Actually, I saw an article fairly recently (as in sometime this year) that stated that 40% of first time marriages in the U.S. end in divorce, so you're odds are actually significantly better than 50/50 - you're actually more like a 3 in 5 chance of staying married. Of course, it was only for the U.S., and I suppose it is possible that it is higher in other countries.

Fel's point about some people counting more than once is also valid, but with this study, since it's only counting first time marriages, it takes care of that. Now if you get remarried and divorced again, you still only count once.

 

Hey, DotW! Haven't heard from you in a while! Yes, you are a ****ing cold-hearted, self-centered bastard! Didn't want to disapoint.
Actually, I agree with your assesment of the problem 100%. People treat love like fast food and usually end up falling into, and quickly out of, lust, not love. Who's to blame? Primarily our hypersexualized society.
But that doesn't mean all, or even most, marriages are doomed to failure. The statistic, as of 2001, was actually 50% of all FIRST marriages end in divorce WITHIN THE FIRST 5 YEARS. Meaning that it was the first for both partners, so no serial monogamy messing things up. The stats if one or more partner has ended one marriage in divorce already are something like 66% and they go up for each time either partner has been divorced.
It also means that if you've lasted 5 years already, you're pretty much out of the woods. I think the divorce stats after that point are something like 10% in the next 2 years (total of 7 years) and 2% after that.

 

Good to see you too, NOG.

Marriage may be totally out of the question, but it doesen't mean a solid, stable relationship is. Yet, sadly, that can also be considered a fairy tale. I'm glad to see that some you agree with the hypersexualized fast-food society. Maybe things are different in your corners of the world, but it seems that here in little Quebec, this tide has reached an extreme.

I pride myself in being part of the 5% of guys that think outside the box - the ones who don't judge a woman only by her body, but also strongly by her personality. I guess that makes me an old-school guy, and that's just fine with me. However, everywhere I look, it seems that the ultimate goal of whatever relationship are build is just quick and mindless fun. WTF? I'm fairly certain that I've already said that, but what the hell. The act of sex is something special, and it should be shared with someone who is equally special, not with the person who is the hottest at the moment...

While it should be clear by now that I don't believe in marriage, I am jaded by the obvious lack of woman seeking something long-term, and who won't judge a book by it's cover alone (in that case, who won't judge a guy by his appearance alone). I have chose not to be a part of the hypersexualized fast-food society, and thus, I am 99.9% of the time looked down on. I'm tired of that. Still, I have made my choice, and I do not regret it at all. Collecting the biggest amount of hot sex partners isn't for me.

Society is sick, oh so very sick.

 

Ah, this explains a lot - not only are you a ****ing cold-hearted, self-centered bastard, but you're one of those crazy French Canadians too eh? Now we know what you're all aboot DoTW!

In that regard, your stance is admirable. I don't know any guy that married a woman without any regard for her personality. Sure, maybe when you're messing around in high school or college and just trying to get a piece of ass you don't care about her personality, but once you start considering marriage with someone, it is important that you don't just work well on a physical level, but also on a psychological and personality level as well. To enter into a marriage just based on physical attraction would be a huge mistake, and in that regard I agree with your assessment completely.

 

No. Your comment still infers that ALL people treat love that way. I don't. Aldeth doesn't. Rallymama doesn't. T2Bruno doesn't. Quit with the doom and gloom and focus on the positive - that it certainly doesn't have to be as bad as you make out. Leave the people who do treat love that way to it, and do what YOU feel is right.

 

Like I said before, you'll get bored, or vice versa, and I don't see anything bad about that, it's perfectly normal as far as I'm concerned.

 

After 10 years of marriage I'm still having too much fun to be bored. How are things going for you?

 

There has been a lot of talk about our modern hypersexualized society, where we treat sex like fast food, marry for lust, and then get bored of the relationship and get a divorce. While I am certain this does exist in abundance (though obviously not for many members of this thread), I believe it is only half of the problem. The other half, I think, is the pressure society puts on getting married. I believe that we suffer from a subconcious panic urging us to marry, a panic installed in our earliest childhood by the basic tenants of western society. PErhaps the best example of this is exhibited in the "American Dream", in which a happy marriage with happy kids supported by happy parents is the ultimate goal. Thus, I believe that many people seek marriage almost fervently in their life, desiring to fulfill this ingrained societal expectation. In fact, they WANT to marry, the very concept to them is deepy appealing. So they marry to be married, and the feelings for their partners are often distorted and exaggerated by what the partners represent: the married life. Felnoid mention maturity. I believe that the masses of people who marry in modern, western society lack the maturity Fel described, at least at the time of their marriage. Therefore, they lack a stable foundation of true love, and when the illusion of the perfection of marriage wears off so too does the exagerated image of their partner wear off, and the marriage bcomes just another divorce statistic.

 

But marriage IS great. The concept IS deeply appealing. Happy kids supported by happy parents IS a worthy goal. I'm not sure what is so wrong with that!

 

So true HB, it is hard work, but a strong marriage helps the kids feel secure, and secure kids have more self confidence in life. My parents were married 38 years before my father died, and never once did I ever fear that they were going to split up.

 

I wholeheartedly agree. But I think, because there is such extreme emphasis put on this goal, that a lot of people marry before they are ready to make that kind of commitment, or they marry someone who is not truly compatiable with them, but who seems wonderful because he/she represents the married life. And because today's society does not force people to stay together and prohibit divorce (like it did in the good old middle ages), these marriages do not last

 

I disagree with this. In fact, I believe just the opposite to be true. People are marrying later in life now than they ever have before. Here's some statistics I just looked up:

Here are the ages for first time marriages - They had them for a whole bunch of years, but I tried to pick a few that were about equidistant apart - about 40 years in this case. The first number is the male's age, the second the female's age.

1920s 24.6 21.2
1960s 22.8 20.3
2003 27.1 25.3

While I thought it was surprising that people were getting married when they were a little older in the 20s compared to the 60s, the general trend of people being older when they first marry today is definitely true. So I certainly don't think the lack of maturity is a modern problem, unless you also feel that people were maturing at earlier rates in previous generations. If the typical 27 year old man and 25 year old woman today aren't mature enough to be married, then it certainly suggests that the 23 year old man and 20 year old woman weren't mature enough back in the 1960s either.

 

Actually, I agree with Deepfae. We have made marriage a pre-requisite to the 'normal life'. Paul tells us, and here he actually says it is his belief and that God hasn't told him anything on the issue, that a man is better off and more devoted to God if he is unmarried, but that most men can't handle their entire lives as virgins.
Personally, I go with the OT view that man was not intended to be alone, but if God has blessed you with the ability to go without for you're entire life, then there's no real need to get married. No pressure, no rush, just take your time and get it right the first time.