POLL: What does America stand for - for you?

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lol, HB.

Uh...America stands for "home" as far as I'm concerned. I don't think there's any nation I'd rather be living in. England, Canada, Aussieville, or New Zealand maybe, but...

 

I totally agree with this, Harbourboy.
There's also a touch of arrogance and ignorance in there in my opinion. Which I suppose pretty much falls in uder the 'live for today, worry about the future later' thing...

 

I dont really know what view to have of America really, when it all comes down America is pretty much like the other Western countries. The biggest difference is that the US views itself as superduperspecial and unicque and that no other place in the world have the same wonderful oppurtunities and freedoms they have.

As for Sweden, I dont know really. One word that comes to my mind though is pragmatism. Swedes and Sweden seem to be, comparably, more pragmatic and less prone to controlled by emotions.

 

Great point, HB. This was actually a talking point on "Real Time with Bill Mahr" this past week. It was the general premise of how Americans feel it's OK to "fix it for now". The idea that we don't care if it's worse off 20 years from now, fix it for me now. Call it fast food politics and social issues if you like. I don't care if that cheeseburger is full of fat and will kill me in 20 years. I want it fast, I want it now, and I'll worry about the problems it will cause in 20 years when it's 20 years from now.

 

Because I do not know nor could I care less what America stands for I'm going to leave comments on that for other, but I guess I can say what Finland for me stands for.

Finland stands to me for equal possibilities. No matter how poor your family is you have the chances of getting an equally good education. You don't have to be a lot better than the rich kids, since money don't get you into universities in here. Our education has been in many tests rated as one of the best educations in the world and from what I've seen of other education systmes in other countries I can't help but to agree on that.

 

I voted "Other" for a plethora of reasons, both good and bad. The short description would be, "Smug, yet fearful. Proud, yet insecure." And keep in mind that these words are from the mind of somebody who's lived in America for a full decade of her life (though I use "they" instead of "we" in reference to Americans because I do not consider myself one).

Smug -- America is always acting self-assured, like they know what's best for everybody else, very rarely repenting for any misdeeds, when what they really need to do is fix their domestic problems before they even think of tackling perceived problems in other nations.
Fearful -- Americans wouldn't be lobbying to ban things like homosexual marriage if they weren't afraid of them. Or at least I assume they wouldn't. (See also: "Insecure")
Proud -- (See: "Smug.")
Insecure -- Americans are insecure about other nations having nuclear weapons, and yet America still has more of them than all other nations put together. I think Albert Einstein said it best: "The more a country makes military weapons, the more insecure it becomes: if you have weapons, you become a target for attack." Insecure about perfectly natural things like human sexuality, too. (See also: "Fearful")


Feel free to refute any of these points with valid, logical arguments, or to ask questions, which I will answer to the best of my ability.

 

I don't really go for the 'Rags to Riches' option it seems that big brands are given preferences over small local businesses. This is not an insiders point of view as I have lived in the US for several years.

I don't think the US is very accepting of other cultures. Everything has to be remaid to be acceptible such as British television (coupling, changing rooms, the office and the remake of faulty towers). Even movies have been changed, such as Mad Max being redubbed with American accents! I could mention movies based on history and fantasy. Even food is commercialised, from the battery hen factories to the way the food is 'cooked'. I expect a fastfood Indian chain to become available within the next 10 years.

As for N.Ireland, I think we have great equal opportunities. Everything is looking up these days. We have a good balance between industry and nature, our politics are now balanced (though we never had a 2 party system), we are relying on ourselves these days, we are better educated than the rest of the UK (the only thing holding us back is a lack of universities), we are understanding our history, not simply learning specific parts to re-enforce certain political beliefs, but our terrorism problem is still there, however, its no-where the same capacity as it was during the 70's and 80'. Things can only continue to improve.

 

America stands for three things in my opinion: money, power and mass stupidity.

 

In the 80's it was Sex, Drugs 'n Rock 'n Roll.

These days I would say it is more like Guns 'n, Drugs 'n, Jesus.

 

@HB: I concur. However, I see the US credit balance as part of a global credit imbalance, as 1) the US is not alone in having a credit bubble and for example the BBC runs a story every week or so about the UK housing bubble; 2) the US wouldn't be on a credit binge if other countries weren't lending to it; and 3) other countries lend to the US because they need the US to buy their exports, as either their economies are stagnant or they don't have enough domestic demand. So, sadly, if the US credit bubble bursts, the fallout will be global.

@JSBB: At this point, having lived in Canada, having known a number of Canadian "intellectuals," and having studied a number of Canadian writers on technology, I almost feel like I could write a thesis on Canadian identity and the US in the 20th C. The funny thing is how old the debate is, and how similar the terms of criticism were in the past to today. I would probably argue that the fact that so many Canadians have written incisively about the social effects of technology stems from their discomfort with the perceived american-ness of much of that technology. George Grant, a conservative Catholic contemporary of McLuhan, is especially interesting here, for example "Technology and Empire" (1969). However, I did think that Canadians can also be "loud" about their nationalism, for example in displaying the Canadian flag on nearly everything, perhaps even more so than Americans, if that's believable. And the big discrepancy between the national identities of the US and Canada is the extent to which the Canadian identity is based on "we're not the US," while the thought of Canada barely crosses most Americans' minds. In fact, following the earlier discussion of the "War of 1812" or British-American War, or whatever, most Americans think of this as a war against the British Empire, and don't really think of it as an American-Canadian affair at all...

In general: wow, lots of people chose the "The US is the Center of All Evil" option. Seems a little overblown and silly to me...

 

It's hard to generalise. You're so big and while outside it looks like one huge country the size of Europe or Australia, internally it's more like 50 semi-independent provinces that don't necessarily love each other, so there's hardly a uniform pattern in anything.

Except paranoid security means in the recent years, maybe, and cops with God complex in general, along with retarded security guards who are cops in their own mind.

Guess one good all-States-wide quality would be that it's easier to get a job than in Europe, especially around here. Perhaps it isn't going to be something matching your qualifications, but it still pays better than what you would get here even if you were lucky. On the other hand, prices are also higher and the work market probably has its own problems which aren't immediately apparent to an outsider's eye.

There is also the false blessing of the rule of the law or rather the courts. About law enforcement I already spoke less than favorably a couple of lines before, but there is the whole lawsuit culture on a different level from just the police and other services. What a European values is certainty of the law and you don't get that in the States. Ideologies, politics, you name it. But it's hardly the law, let alone alone justice, what many of the judges are administering.

Yet another striking tendency is high levels of violence. Violence of all sorts.

Next is sex. On one hand, it's a puritanical society which looks on Europeans as at best frivolous but sex is everyone and of the kind that most Europeans wouldn't accept easily. It's practically a commodity to sell like any other on the market and something like watching TV or working in the garden outside of market situations. Sometimes it makes me wonder if people will ever bore with it. Lots of cheap sex everywhere, a pressure to lose virginity about after a girl's first moon and people talking about sex casually when setting up the first date. At parties and events, everyone seems to be out to lay or get laid. I don't understand that.

Then there are obesity figures. More and more people become obese and more and more people tell them it's genetic and unrelated with the amounts of junk food they eat or physical activity they perform.

If we are at it, telling other people what they want to hear seems to be the norm. On one hand, every sort of obscenity will be protected by the freedom of speech or expression but the same freedoms will be nerfed heavily in the name of political correctness by not even the government or courts but private businesses and people.

For example, it's all right to feed the unwilling public with anti-Christian Satanic or pagan crap and the Christians' feelings don't matter here, but a priest goes to prison for five months for saying rosary in front of an abortion clinic because it awakens the mothers' conscience and makes them feel uncomfortable. The Decalogue is now politically incorrect and unfit for public display because people don't want anyone to say out loud what's good and what's bad. Why? How does it hurt them - do they really care? Apparently they do. They want to be told that what they are doing is right but they are not willing to follow any moral standards for it. They just want affirmation. In a highly capitalistic environment, this is given to them as a commodity. And they are willing to pay. Hard work is still in esteem, but positive qualities are replaced with a positive view of oneself. In some people, it looks like a paradox between total disregard for anyone else's opinions and wishes on one side and a desperate cry for attention and craving acceptance of others on the other side.

In this world's temporal matters, I am a staunch believer in logic. This logic used to be firm in the States. It was a simple and sound logic, easily penetrable and consistent. Now this logic is missing. It is being replaced by the logic of the market which knows no laws other than profit. It is always a sad sight when crystal clear and demanding but achievable and fairly judged standards lose field to political correctness and economic gain or even the elusive comfort of being pleased with oneself.

I fear the world is losing the country of cheerful hard-working and righteous people.

 

@Chev: the tensions between market, morals, tolerance, and religion has a long, long history in the US, and many of the same battles seem to be played out again and again in different contexts. The puritans were also shrewd business men, as Max Weber pointed out in the Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, and the relationships between market liberalism and social liberalism and conservativism are by no means clear. Many newcomers to the US, raised on a diet of US movies and pop music, have been surprised at how conservative many Americans are. And it's often funny to see critics of the US oscillate between painting the US as religiously or socially conservative, and so mired in tradition, at the same time as they accuse the US as undermining moral traditions through the spread of pop culture and the market economy. Somewhat of a paradox, I suppose.

Actually, I think The Decalogue is eminently suitable for public display, and I've probably seen it about three times in its entirety; Kieslowsky was a genius!

 

To me, America is like a flashy car, or a flamboyant sportsperson or entertainer. The glamour and glitz is all there, the confidence and presentation is immaculate. It's reaching out for everything material it can lay its hands on, all the sex and money and advantage it can find, and there doesn't seem to be any consideration of "well, what is it for?". Unless you stop to ask or look closer, you don't notice that it's nowhere near as grand as it pretends to be. I'm not sure that it even believes its own illusion any more. I think more and more people are seeing through the lies they've been raised to believe (and this is a general statement, not an indictment on the GOP) and asking why. I don't know where that will lead, but as Bion pointed out, the Protestant Ethic seems to have survived, but still doesn't stop to ask why: one's success and wealth are a measure of Providence and spiritual esteem, and therefore wealth is its own reward, both in this life and the next.

As for Australia, I'm not sure. I'd have to say innovation, intransigence and the "she'll be right, mate" attitude that no matter what happens, things will sort themselves out. Those three seem to be somewhat contradictory, but I think they sum up the Australian psyche reasonably well.

@ Chev: No argument here (well, except about logic - I tend to believe that it only gives one the ability to be wrong authoritatively). I was under the impression that the US was all about freedom, in its infancy as a colony, as a young nation, and today. Now it seems more and more like that freedom is not the freedom to be who you want or believe what you want; the number one freedom these days is your freedom to choose which brand you want.

 

@NonSequitur

I completely agree with that view. That's all I've got to say.

 

Threads of this nature simply amaze me. Everyone loves to jump on the bandwagon -- and it leaves me scratching my head as to the purpose of threads such as this. I guess I just don't get it. Oh, wait.....I must be part of the "mass stupidity" that was mentioned earlier...that explains it.

Is it that the have-nots can't stand the have's? Is it that people just love to have something or some people to bash? That's sure what it looks like to me.

And Rally, your comments fall on deaf ears, unfortunately.

 

@ Spellbound,

You make a good point, but my intention was not just to bash (well, not for the sake of it). I don't think anyone can deny that the US has been remarkably successful as a nation, all things considered. Having never been there, I have only an outsider's perspective and would very much like to be wrong about it. Success is part of the US image; my view is that success is seen as an end in itself by too many people, but is particularly noticeable in this case. I don't doubt that a substantial proportion, heck, maybe the vast majority of Americans don't fit that image; however, it is the one I see from where I sit across the Pacific.

Then again, I have a desk calendar of "Bushisms", so I figure people can draw their own conclusions on me from that. Better check the wheels of this wagon I'm on...

And I suppose what is not specifically stated in my earlier post is more damning of my own country than anything else. After all, who didn't grow up idolising the sports star, or wanting the flashy car? The way things stand right now, Australia sure did. Heck, I did as well; I loved it until I started seeing the darker side of the image, both in the US and in Australia. I'm as proud as any non-Liberal Party voter could be of my country, but it's still a long way from ideal.

 

Spellbound -- I thank you for saying in better words exactly what I wanted to. Although I usually don't respond to threads like these as I view attempts to reason with those who already hate America as a pointless endeavor, I can't help but feel the need to say I'm dumbfounded by some of these labels slapped on my country as if it's a can of sardines (or worse). The "mass stupidity"-type comments, specifically, are the ones that burn me. This is probably why I respect Morgoroth's post so much. Although the nature of this thread is indeed focused on labels, I hope this isn't the extent of some folks' regards to individuality.

The center of all evil? Please...

 

I think the american media and Bush are to blame for the negative feelings towards the USA in the world today. Every time something crazy happens in the US it immediately gets broadcasted all over the world. Because no one knows (or cares) about crazy things happening in Finland, we don't get the 'mass stupidity'-type comments. And when Bush comes along with the "I'll do whatever I want, whenever I want and ain't nobody (except my advisors) gonna tell me what to do"-mentality it pisses people off.

But some of the greatest thing in the world have come from america: rock'n'roll, gibson guitars, D&D, Bioware (doh), Steven Erikson (doh)...

 

Sorry, I didn't see that.

OK, my views of New Zealand are:
- too outward looking (we spend too much time wanting to know what it's like in the rest of the world)
- living beyond our means (just like the USA, Australia, and UK - it can't continue)
- proud (maybe too proud sometimes without any good reason)
- tolerant (racial tension in NZ is nothing compared to most other countries, no matter what Maori activists might say)
- innovative (look at the recent impact of NZ on the world of cinema)
- complacent (I don't think many NZers really believe that bad things can happen here - look at our pathetic military defences)