POLL: What does America stand for - for you?

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@ Tal. So is Steven Erikson just my to Canada.

On Finland:
+ I like the welfare system, education, healthcare... pretty much agree with Morgoroth.
+ Lots of forest, lakes, clean air, nature in general.
+ Open minded and tolerant (most of the time).
- Compulsory military duty, min.6 months or alternatively 13 moths civil service or 6 months jail. I don't think this kind of system has any place in a free democratic society.
- Cuts in healthcare and education.
- Politicians never doing what they promise, probably the same all over the world
- There are more negative things, but these are the ones that really annoy me.

 

Taluntain -- Although I can't see my post as an extremist point of view rather than a reaction, your assumption is correct in thinking that no offense was intended on my part, and I apologize to anyone who might have been offended. My post was not aimed at you, or anyone critical of the US for that matter (I'm critical), which is why I should have clarified that I was referring to those who chose the "center of all evils" option as being unreasonable.

 

Wow. This has turned into a good post. For all the Americans out there (of which I am one):

GET A GRIP!!!

Not everyone likes America -- get over it. Some people around the world (and a rather significant amount ) DO believe America is center of all evil. Any Americans that don't realize this are just deluding themselves. The real value in posts like this is seeing how people feel -- raw, unedited emotion. You can't argue about how someone feels about something -- it's a part of who they are (no amount of arguing will change that).

I think this is a great opportunity for people to vent and for the naive Americans (of which there are more than a few of us) to sit back, read, and learn.

While you're at, read The Ugly American.

 

T2Bruno -- I don't need to sit back and listen to people slamming the US OVER AND OVER AGAIN. And what you call "venting" isn't much different that a "bashing" event, imo. There are quite a few Americans here who are tired of it -- and I'm one of them. And at first I took the attitude that I will just go be quiet somewhere and let everyone else rant on how the US is the source of the world's ills, let people attack the country and its citizens at will -- but I was wrong. I'm NOT going to just shut up and go away. I will yell loud and long -- criticism is one thing -- calling the US "mass stupidity" is highly offensive to me and I won't pretend I didn't see it. I'll leave that to YOU.

 

T2Bruno: If you're going to encourage the aforementioned raw emotion, fine. But, while doing so, please don't scream "GET A GRIP!!!" as soon as you see someone on the other end of the table who doesn't appreciate it. You might think this is just the perfect little learning experience for everyone, but I really doubt we're going to witness anything here that we haven't already heard before. This is hardly a case of denial.

[ March 31, 2005, 20:20: Message edited by: War Nerve ]

 

I feel the need to clarify that I live in America and the only reason I agreed with NonSequitur was because of what I've seen in my own country. I do have to admit... I haven't seen enough of my country to make such a blanket judgment but when that's pretty much the view shown to you over the media you do form an opinion on it.

I am completely aware of the fact that a lot of people don't like America, and I can live with that. I also have to side with Spellbound on this one, it gets irritating hearing about how everyone thinks of you when you already know. I could take it a step further but this is supposed to be a civil discussion and I'm not about to ruin it.

 

While it is perfectly fine for one to dislike America, to make blanket statements about Americans demonstrates a level of ignorance that negates the rationality of your dislike.

But hey...we're all friends here, right?

 

So long as you can find "the rest of the world" on the map.

It's not so much the centre of evil as the centre of attention. You guys are like fifty countries spanning over a Europe-sized area and forming one front on the international area... You're bound to get half the world's attention. Sure, I do bash you a lot. I tell American jokes, I will complain about practically all administrations you ever get and occasionally I will make nasty generalisations, but you don't get half the pounding, joking or serious, that my own Poles and Polish governments get from me.

 

I apologize for the presumption of my post -- it seems most of the angst was caused over a particular post. I mistakenly thought it was just a 'let's attack the anti-Americans' type of thing. Once again, I apologize.

Actually, I thought there were a lot of great statements here -- with only one or two really 'bashing' comments. Only one comment I saw appeared to go outside the AoLS rules, but nobody else jumped on that bandwagon so I didn't think it really mattered (otherwise I would have used the link at the top of the page).

Edit: Chev -- geography, now THAT'S a distressing subject in America (too many high school students can't find Canada on the map).

 

Sticker, no matter who you vote for, the government always gets in...

As Chev said, I'm sure most of us non-USA folks bash our own country longer, harder and louder than the US. However, I'm in a better position to tee off on Sydney, Alan Jones (not the racing driver, the other one), the Liberal Party, or the mandatory detention policy for asylum seekers. What I see and hear about the US, however, leads me to my position, and since we very rarely get posts about politics in other nations which generate as much interest, people's opinions of the USA will keep appearing on the forum. Again, as Chev so accurately stated, you guys are the centre of attention.

I am sympathetic to people like Rallymama, Darkwolf and Spellbound (and maybe you too, Hacken Slash), who may feel like it's just one endless anti-American tirade that they're sick of. I almost know how you feel; I'm more centre than Left, but I'm in an Arts faculty at university. Guess how popular some of my comments are, even when they're only thrown up to stimulate debate and thought in the tutorial rooms?

In some cases, we get a bit too heated - I know I was over the line during the US election, and I copped the same back. Abomination was over the line too, as well; there are more diplomatic ways of saying that sort of thing. Most of us with those opinions have never been to the US; as I said earlier, I would like to be wrong about my opinion, and don't doubt that it applies to a more visible slice of America rather than the whole entity.

T2 has a good point, though; perception is as good as reality here. Of course, changing that perception is probably beyond the power of any of us, short of actually working to increase our understandings. Then again, that's off-topic for this thread.

 

The USA is a great place to go for a holiday. I have been there several times and had lots of fun. Some of the highlights of my holidays in the USA have been:
- Las Vegas - crazy crazy crazy - you can't help but have fun
- Disneyland - loved it. Looking forward to having kids old enough to go back with.
- Grand Canyon - awesome
- Yosemite National Park - spectacular
- small towns - such wierd little towns that seem so isolated from the rest of the world. Fascinating
- Texas - never seen steaks so big. Plus I actually saw people there who wear cowboy hats and do line dancing in real life
- New York - amazing place. Loads of deja vu from all the movies I've seen which are set there.

So, one positive for me is that USA is a really great holiday destination.

 

Reasons why I think America is stupid: The entire legal framework of America is possibly the most horrible system of democracy I have ever seen. Nobody knows who has the true power (government or the courts?), everyone is appealing everything else (aw, we lost - appeal!), people sue for the most pathetic reasons (emotional damages, urgh), everyone has/needs a shrink, they call the baseball league that only their teams take place in the 'World Series' (what brainiac thought that one up?) and trust me the examples go on and on.

People asked for my opinion and I gave it. If you're offended by the fact that I think most Americans are stupid it's not exactly my fault that America presents itself as such to me. However it IS just my opinion, I could be wrong (and most probably am considering what a sweeping statement I made - I'm certain there are very many intelligent Americans out there but proportionatly...) but I'll always look at America as being a rather stupid country. So many improvements could be made but nobody dares to touch those hundreds year old pieces of paper called the constitution.[edit: Sure, they change a few things. But why are the gun laws still there? It's possibly the first law they should have amended after the war of independence. In New Zealand we have no and I mean NO act or law that limits parliament in such a manner.]

Study the NZ legal system, you'll see it's simply so much better than the American.

[ April 01, 2005, 14:07: Message edited by: Abomination ]

 

There is not much to explain, especially since your "explaination" has only got you in deeper here. It is still in violation of the forum rules: [Warning PM sent].

Then you said:

Well, you may be pleased to know that Tom Delay has called for a Crusade against the American legal system - you know the most "horrible in the whole world." That's right, the guy who let his own father die is now going to hold "those men accountable." I guess he means those "other men." I am going to craft a separate thread on the impeachment attempts that some in Congress are planning, as this story is still developing, I will wait until Delay can get this off the ground. If he can. Expect to hear a lot about the "culture of life."

Wow, first you go out on the line and say America presents itself as a "stupid country." Then you go and display your own ignorance of the Constitution. The original document has been "touched" 27 times - they are called "amendments." Perhaps you have heard of them. They represent changes that have occured to the document over the last 200 hundred years.

[ April 01, 2005, 05:12: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]

 

Heh, no offence here Chandos my man but 27 times in 200 years isnt all that often, really. I think the Swedish constitution, the one in use now is from 1976 iirc and it has probably been tweaked more than 27 times.

You have to admit, you are rather reverent over that constitution document, for good or bad.

 

Yes, joacqin, we are reverent about our Constitution. It is not easy to change it. After congress has passed an amendment, then 2/3rd of the states have to ratify it. Amendments have been passed by Congress but not ratified by the necessary number of states therefore not becoming law.

I am glad that it works that way. Because of this an Administration can not easily change the Constitution to suit its own agenda.

edit: Sorry, Tal, I was typing when you posted. You are right it is off topic.

[ April 01, 2005, 13:36: Message edited by: Nakia Nightshadow ]

 

To somewhat elaborate on Abominations comment,

He has a very good point which I think was missed. The vast majority of exposure that we get (in Britain at least) to seeing the lives of real American's is, alas, the talk shows like Jerry Springer. Surprisingly enough, this is not a good advertisement for your country; the vast majority of people on the shows come across and ignorant and uneducated.
Now it's possible that these are the main shows we get to see because we like to feel superior and the TV shows are merely satisfying that need. Alternatively, it's just because we make our own more intellectual programs, so there isn't the need to import them.

I voted "none" but in reality a lot of them apply. Despite being labelled anti-American at least twice on these boards, it has to be said I like both the country and the people. It's certainly not the centre of all evil, though they have their fair share (I sometimes get the impression that this is not recognised however). In truth, despite my occasional tirades, I'm not even particularly anti-republican - I just think that Bush is the most dangerous man on the planet. I agree with Abomination w.r.t. an intense dislike of the American system of law. Some of the supposed (I recognise not all are truthful) cases of successfully suing people for the most ludicrous reasons don’t help the impression of stupidity. (I'm sure there is a version of the Darwin awards that comes round occasionally.) What’s worse is that this is insidiously spreading to the UK. People are no longer willing to take responsibility for their own actions; trip over a crack in the pavement? SUE. (Alternatively, just look where you’re going you damn fool). I also have issues with the amount of power held by the big corporations as they appear to have the power to dictate government policy.

It's probably just me, I've always found it easier to criticise than praise, but here goes:

Israel & Palestine: Probably the most positive action that the US is doing, especially as they are not supporting Israel “come-what-may” as has previously been the appearance.

People: Best service industry I’ve encountered (Except the local O’Neil’s pub – foot of the BT tower in London if anyone is interested - which is beyond par) People are extremely friendly, if sometimes a little hazy on geography and accents.

Too much praise, I’m getting palpitations.

Running out of time now, I’ll return later to turn my ire on England.

 

Carcaroth - I think you have hit on the fact that it IS easier to criticise than to praise.

And you are right that we are bombarded every day with messages about bad things in the USA - the military policies, the fat people, the bulging debts, the Jerry Springer guests, the fast food, the people interviewed in Bowling for Columbine etc etc etc.

A very bad picture of the USA is painted for us all over the world and that colours our initial reactions to a question like: 'what does America mean to you'.

 

Well, as I made up this thread in first place, I think I have to post a clarification, much more after the usual suspects , unavoidably, and as I probably could have foreseen , wrote the sort of useless replies they are renowned for.

Well, this thread is really about things America symbolises for you. I was in first place interested to see how Americans see their country and how foreigners see it.

Kept in a civilised way and tone such an exercise could benefit both sides.

It is not meant as another opportunity to reiterate the pointless nonsense a la "Reasons why I think America is stupid". That (a) isn't aswering the question of the thread, and (b) it is destructive.

When one thinks America's legal system could use reform, fine, I would even agree there, but leave it at that or open up a respective thread. Going on like "America is stupid because it has a silly legal system", well, is an abomination, quite literally.

The direction I wanted this thread to develop should have been quite clear by a simple look on the questions in my poll. So, please, get back to topic and to a civilised tone.

 

Yet an option in the poll was "naked agression; center of all evil and of all ills of the world" and you're saying that isn't destructive? And I don't appreciate the usless replies jab either.