Questions regarding NPCs...

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Well, that's a reason why they would fight - that's not a reason why I didn't know they would fight. The reason I did't know is because I've never had them in my party together. Still, point taken.

I will agree that there are definitely decent armors to get for Tiax. The Shadow Armor and Drizzit's spring immediately to mind. However, why in the world would you place GoOP on Tiax? Sure, he can wear them, but wouldn't you prefer to place them on a character which is at least part fighter, who gets more than one attack per round, and will benefit more from the enhanced strength?

I can see why you did it in your little people party, because Kagain probably was using the gauntlets of dexterity, Quayle probably didn't do too much in the way of melee combat, and Alora couldn't use them, but most of the time, it's almost always better to give the GoOP to someone who can specialize in weapons. Unless you have a party similar to yours (i.e., only one character who can gain weapon specialization who also happens to be using a different set of gauntlets) then you'd never put the GoOP on Tiax.

Can't argue with that, although notice I said that you would be using him (either Qualye or Tiax) as a second cleric. Most people don't like the idea of going through Chapters 1-4 without a cleric, so I'm supposing that most people will already have one. And if you already have one, it's not necessary that you're second one be top notch. My arguement was essentially that a second cleric in the party is usually a good idea if you can find the room, but Quayle is almost as good, and his mage skills are going to be a whole lot more useful than Tiax's thief skills. There are so many thieves available to you that they should far exceed Tiax's thieving skills in almost any regard (and certainly Alora was a better thief in your little people party). Bascially, I'm saying again that unless someone was trying to re-create your PoLP, Tiax isn't that useful.

I should probably qualify my statement that C/T are underpowered compared to any other multi-class for either a cleric or a thief. I think all of the following are more powerful: F/C, C/M, R/C, F/T, M/T. Some reasons I don't like them in BG2:

1. Only can become proficient in a weapon
2. Lots of good staves, but only one attack per round makes assassination a worthless skill.
3. There are two worthwhile cleric HLAs.

If you like them, that's fine, but as far as multi-classed PCs go, I found them underwhelming, and not particularly interesting to play.

 

Ah, I mistook what you were giving reasons for. Looking back on it, I'm not sure how I didn't catch that, though.

Why put the GoOP on Viconia either? Because they could tank well if it weren't for their abominable STR scores. And an 18/00 backstab is nothing to sneeze at. Plus I don't understand why people would put the GoOP on a character that had at least 16 STR if there's a tank who needs it more; they just don't need it. As for armor, I usually equip Tiax with Full Plate, not those thieving armors you mentioned. Take it off to stealth, then put it on and rush in to backstab.

Quayle isn't even close in clerical skills. And neither was Alora even close in thieving skills; she was completely worthless. Tiax was the one disarming all the traps, Monty opened locks, and Alora shot shot an arrow or two. Tiax lead in kills (even over Kagain), and I'd be glad to have him in any other party. Now my Quayle was good as an I/C, but NPC Quayle sucks harder than a Hoover.

I'll give you all of those except the F/C (and the C/M only if you have a proper character, which Quayle is not, but Aerie is). Comparing backstabbing against a piddly attack per round doesn't get you very far. And if you want to go into HLAs, the traps overwhelm every other HLA in existence. (Well, maybe Greater Deathblow. That one's saved my bacon a number of times against mind flayers.)

1. Ditto for any non-fighter.
2. Ditto for any non-fighter. (And Assassination's main advantage for non-fighters is not having to go re-stealth, which takes time. You could even say that it adds attacks during the time that would otherwise be wasted.)
3. Not sure how you're counting 'worthwhile' since I count five. And anyway, most of the HLAs of a C/T would be chosen from the traps in the thief pool.

And again, if you find them underwhelming, then you're not using them properly; many people have said the same exact thing about Haer'Dalis's perceived "suckiness". As for interesting to play, the RP value of a C/T is gold (pun not intended). Trying to balance a cleric's piety with a thief's acquisitiveness is a great NPC personality builder.

 

Fel,

I am actually quite surprised by your responses. You still haven't won me over completely, but I just have a few more questions for you.

Truthfully, I rarely put the gauntlets on Viconia either. I don't have a "set" person or "set" party so that the gauntlets always go the one particular person, although some get them more than others. For example, if Khalid is in my party, that usually trumps everyone else in terms of who gets priority. The arguement of a character being able to tank if not for a low strength score is more applicable in BG2 than BG1. In BG1, there's another reason why Viconia isn't a great tank - low hps. Still, you seem to agree with my basic premise that it usually is better to give the GoOP to someone who gets more than one attack per round. Granted, you wouldn't give them to a character like Minsc, but most other fighter types would greatly benefit (like Montoron), who I'm still surprised you didn't give them to.

Cheater! (Actually good idea, as it's something I never even thought to try.) But seriously, maybe the game engine allows that, but it certainly isn't in the spirit of the game. I don't know any DM that would allow someone to attempt to stealth (never mind that in real PnP, you wouldn't know if you stealth was successful or not), then put on heavy armor, and still let the character be considered hidden. So you're not really a cheater, more like exploiting a loophole in the rules.

It's been so long since I played either character, I completely forget what their wisdom scores were, although I do remember Quayle's being pretty bad (like 12 or something like that). If Tiax's wisdom is very high (and I have no recollection of his - maybe 16?) then he very well could be much better than Quayle. I am shocked that Alora was the least worthwhile of your three thieves, as she was the one pure class. Did she join at a really low level or something? As for Tiax out-killing Kagain, well, that's just really, really surprising.

Point conceded. Never looked at it that way, but you're absolutely right.

 

I'd say you've got it backwards there; BG2 is where you can't help but get hit by anything and everything, and need high HP to effectively tank. In BG1, AC is king and not getting hit at all is actually a possibility with high DEX and good armor (for almost all fights, anyway).

It's pretty simple.
Monty in the front row and Tiax in the back row: Monty gets slaughtered with his lighter armor attacking 3/2 times a round while Tiax slings once per round. Total attacks - 5/2 (really 3/2 since Tiax wouldn't be able to hit anything)
Tiax in the front row and Monty in the back row:
Tiax barely gets touched with his heavy armor attacking once per round and Monty attacks 5/2 with the Light Xbow of Speed. Total attacks - 7/2 (Tiax can actually hit something with the extreme STR bonus)

Tiax is also limited to one attack type with his single weapon slot; he cannot have both melee and missile.

Not quite. It may have been some tricky semantics, but I never said that I used that backstab trick, just that I equipped him with Full Plate. The trick was simply a suggestion to make better use if you don't mind cheese. And anyone who wants to assuage their conscience can put the Boots of Speed on him and assume a rush in the clanking plate would not be reacted to until too late, or something like that. (Personally, I put the Boots on Kagain. Having him be a dextrous, fast killing machine just fit my idea of him in that playthrough.)

Actually, the numbers are 10 and 13, respectively (finding Tiax's that low kind of surprised me; I remembered him being better). All that means is one extra first-level spell. Thinking about end-game, I do seem to recall that he didn't have that many spells. He's still a tinier bit better, though.

No, she was actually at a higher level than everybody else. But due to my NPC Remix, her skills were spread around, so all of them were at 60 or 70%. Meanwhile, Monty was already uber at opening locks and Tiax was better than her at disarming traps. I just dumped everything into stealth and forgot about her being at all useful in that game (though she did have her uses for picking pockets). She did come back full force as a swashie in BG2, though; those bonuses are really starting to stack.

I was as surprised as you that Tiax was getting so damn many kills even without backstabbing much; if he hadn't I doubt I'd be defending him right now. I guess you could say that he really made an impression on me.

[ March 29, 2006, 00:43: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

 

But by that logic, couldn't you just have put heavier armor on Monty, and get the best of both worlds? I don't know, I haven't done the math on this, especially considering I don't feel like calculating what their THAC0s would be, so I suppose it is possible that Monty with GoOP at 5/2 attacks and Tiax with a sling with 1 attack, would still not out damage on average your setup.

I'm really shocked it works at all, considering you need to go to the backpack screen to change armor, and when you do, the game unpauses. Even though you stay "hidden" for the remainder of the round, with the automatic unpause, I would think it would wear off before you could do anything.

 

Yes, if I wanted to handicap him. Monty's a backstabber, not a tanker; limiting him with heavier armor...I just can't. It doesn't fit with Monty. Sure, his stats would support it, but again you gotta look at the numbers. 7/2 vs. 5(3)/2 makes a bit of a difference, and I didn't want to have two worthless characters. Even with lighter armor, Tiax still wouldn't be able to backstab and run like Monty, since he can only have the one weapon.

Re: THAC0 -
At endgame, both were at level 6/7, so I'll use that for comparison. Tiax had the +3 quarterstaff from UB, but would have taken Yeslick's +1 sling if he were missiling. Monty had the Dagger of Venom and actually a Composite Long Bow +1 (used profs at 3rd and 6th level on bow). Assuming the meleer has the GoOP:

Tiax - melee 11, missile 14
Monty - melee 9, missile 10

You can see the difference for Tiax, with the only difference for Monty being his number of attacks per round. I'd still get in plenty of backstabs with Monty before backing off and allowing the poison to do its work while he shot arrows.

Factor in damage, and...

Tiax (melee) + Monty (missile) = 50% x 12.5 + 55% x 2.5 x 8.5 = 6.25 + 11.6875 = 17.9375 damage per round

Monty (melee) + Tiax (missile) = 60% x 1.5 x 12.5 + 35% x 4.5 = 11.25 + 1.575 = 12.825 damage per round

So you can see that while it doesn't do a thing for Monty's damage per round since he's more than good from a distance, it does cut Tiax down to uselessness. Also notice that the melee damage numbers were identical at 12.5 per hit. Of course, these numbers don't take into account the extra poison damage that Monty's likely to do if he's constantly using the DoV, but the AC0 default was already pushing it; I'd rather not speculate on a 'default' Save Vs. Poison. (Plus it'd make the numbers a bit more complicated, and I don't want to confuse HB if he's reading this. )

 

I completely forgot that you had Yeslick - he was using a sling?!?! You didn't think heavy armor + shield and wielding the +2 war hammer was a good idea?

I'm not saying the way you did it was bad, it's just becoming more and more apparent that I would have done it very differently than you. Almost with certainty my tanks would have been Yeslick and Kagain, Tiax, Monty, and Alora would take care of thieving/backstabbing, but most of the time would have given missile support (Tiax, sling - Monty, probably the bow from the bandit camp instead of the +1 composite - Alora, light crossbow of speed.)

Qualye also would be missile weapon, but would obviously be handling all of your mage duties as well.

You're also the first person I've seen who used three different theives in one game at the same time.

 

BG is simple. the more characters that you have that can pound the crap out of things in various ways the easier and faster almost every fight is. With the exception of like 2. One of which is the Demon in TotSC in the basement(not Durlag's Tower). The Fewer near him the better.

The other being that damned Teleporting mage in the bottom of the CloakWood Mine. Catch him with one or two and the more they can deal out the faster he dies.

But the sheer combination of characters good at what they do. and only a couple of outright fighters without at least a 16 strength. Khalihd and Jaheira being the only two I can think of in fact. 3 of the Fighters have an 18/xx strength. Minsc as well all know. Kivan is actually powerful any way you want to use him with an 18/12 strength, and Shar-Teel sports an 18/58 strength.

Not to mention that there is really only one way to get a strength score that can't be rolled and that's generally used on the pc.

Combine this with the fact that while they do get additional attacks it doesn't add up to an overwhelming number like in BG2 as well as the fact that the majority of thieves and Clerics which would back up your fighters all are sporting mediocre strength. i believe the numbers on these good 8 characters or so all but 1 range between about 8 and 14 with quite a few of them either being 9 or 11. Boosting their combat with the GoOP can really be a boon to your combat.

Specially when paired up with the any of a number of fighters with mediocre Dexterity. Giving your fighters better effectiveness with a rather decent boost in AC if you don't end up using them on a mage or something.

You would now have several characters that can all do a fair ammount of damage. Combined with the fact that if you know what weapons you want your fighters to use when you start the game it's possible to supplement most if not all of the bonus you would get from the GoOP with mastering weapons. (With bigger bonuses from going over specialization given in BG1). You spread the power around and it benefits your entire party.

In BG1 this can change the ease of battles a lot more than just a couple of power maxed tanks with little more than 2 or 3 extra points. when your giving other characters a good 6 in comparison.

 

He had all of that. He used Bassilus's hammer with a shield and heavy armor (ankheg), and a sling in the other slot for ranged while the enemy is closing. Duh. Of course I wouldn't stick Slick in the back with a sling; he was my third tank. He'd hang back for a round to make sure noone was breaking through to the back ranks, and then head up to help in the front. Combine that with Monty's "backstab and run", and I had three people at the front at all times. (Well, Chapter Five and on, anyway.)

Yes, I usually prefer to keep it down to two. But in this case I didn't have much choice, now did I? And if three thieves surprises you, don't look at my stealth parties. >_>

EDIT: Stuff I didn't have time for earlier.

Ah, but therein lies my dilemma! Backstabbing and ranged attacks are mutually exclusive with but one weapon slot. So of course you go with the backstabbing, but afterward what is there to do? I tried retreating to re-stealth and backstab again, but by the time I could get him in position again all the enemies would be dead. (Kagain and Monty pwn. ) So, to make him of any use at all after that first backstab, he had to stay in there and keep swinging.

Of course, with only 16 DEX he was getting quite beat up with just leather armor on, so I decided to forgo the backstabs and get him some proper tanking armor to see if that would work. But with a piddling STR of 9, he couldn't wear any of them! Something had to be done...a strength-enhancing item, perhaps. I fully expected that he would suck, and I would just end up having him backstab and then stand in a corner for the rest of the fight, but he surprised me and started taking down monsters rather quickly.

You can call it unorthodox, you can call it crazy, but the bottom line is that it worked. In the end, Tiax turned out to be the best killer in the group, so I think I made the right choice. Of course, without the GoOP, Tiax is just crap. But with them...move over Minsc.
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And I'd just like to add that Summon Ghast rules.

[ March 30, 2006, 00:39: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

 

It's actually making more sense the more I think about it. I forgot that he had a strength of only 9, which effectively prevents him from wearing anything other than leather armors anyway. So the more I think about it, your method does make a lot of sense. I guess the bottom line is I wouldn't even have considered doing what you did. Knowing his stats now, he would have just been equipped with leather armor and a sling, and done nothing but throw some rocks around, hitting only occassionally.

 

In my humble opinion, Alora is the worst NPC in the whole game. She's annoying, too. Only for some mysterious roleplaying reasons would I have her in my party.

[ March 30, 2006, 21:08: Message edited by: Larry the Luring ]

 

@Aldeth:
Yeah, but I was desparate at that point not to have two NPCs that were utterly worthless.

@Larry:
In BG1, yes she is. But in BG2, she gets a major upgrade. Her STR goes from 8 to 12, her CHA goes from 10 to 15, and she becomes a swashbuckler. If you've never played a swashbuckler, they kick some major a$$. Even just shooting with Tuigan, those swashie bonuses give her some healthy damage.

 

Absolutely. The first time I finished ToB it was with a swashbuckler. Even though I never was wearing anything beyond leather armors, by the end of the game my PC had the best AC in the group (not that AC matters much at all in ToB). And he was out-killing both Keldorn and Minsc.

 

Getting rid of Dynahair--or any other "paired" NPC.
You don't actually have to kill them. Take ONLY that NPC into any building you don't plan to enter again, the bar where Volo hangs out in Nashkul for example. Dismiss them from the party and LEAVE before they can talk to you. Works best if you stand next to the door and stick them across the room.

On Dynahair: I've only used her in the first half of the game, where she was effective, but I suspect she would be less vauable in the latter stages where summoning spells become more important.

Xan: Has anyone played through with this guy? Can his obvious weaknesses be worked around?

 

You can get Alora in BG2, too? Where?

 

Sorry, no Alora in BGII. Someone mis-spoke.

 

Getting rid of Dynahair--or any other "paired" NPC. Easier version.
Just f***ing kill them. When they're dead, you can kick them out and Minsc won't say Boo (pun intended ).

It's a mod over at CoM. I did not misspeak.

 

If you want Dynaheir and not Misnc. just never talk to Minsc. it works and Dynaheir don't care. It only triggers if you talk to him or have him in your party that they both leave.

Dynaheir really only gets stronger no matter what part of the game she's in. She can actually make summons less needed with things like fireball going. As well as other spells that you give her. If you really want to summon things then just get wands of summoning. they can be picked up in different places.

Xan can't cast fireball but there are several fireball wands you can pick up to make up for this. He's a very good mage and he does decent with his moonblade though I wish he at least got proficiency in the damned thing. he does well as like a secondary mage if you run in a dual mage type of play.

 

Apologies, Fel. As for the "paired" NPC's, BG is a role-playing game. I have "bumped them off", but I was uncomfortable about it. (Poor pixils!) I much prefer sticking them in some building I'll never go in again, even if it does take a bit more time. Whatever works.

 

Indeed, though I like to roleplay an "unfortunate incident". I find it much more realistic that not everyone who joins you will survive. The ogre with the belt fetish is my favorite early killer. Such a dangerous creature taken on so early is bound to create some casualties...