USA gone mad?

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Links please? You overestimate the willingness of the US press to act as a mouthpiece for the government. Besides they can't censor the internet.
Like I said, if someone will provide links to news sources that confirm these war crimes than I will do what I can as a US citizen to affect change.

 

http://www.peacefultomorrows.org/news/christiancentury_a3.html
There is no reason you should trust this link any more than you didn't trust Joacqin, Jack.

They US military is obviously ( No sarcasm ) better at judging the dangers of terrorism and how to respond than any of us. This goes for both precautions (airports) and diminishing (axis of evil). Personally I thing it is utterly rediculous if Mr. Writers story holds any truth.

As Ragusa points out, anything could be dangerous. Why have border control at all? Just rip the visitors of EVERYTHING. 3000 Americans where killed after all; and we don't want it to happen again do we? Where could it happen? Farms in Utah poisoned by bacterias from the fluid in a barbie doll? Long Beach biochemical attack from perfume bottles? Only allow naked travellers with their hands tied to the back. This is not for fun. The US has a terrorist threat hanging everywhere and ALL the time. Anyone saying that confiscating plastic toy guns is a necessity, will agree with me on this one.

Of toppic; Bombing a village by incident, Mr. Writer? Just recently the danish Air force has refused to work with the american Air force until they stop using the amphetamine "Dexedrine" to perform better and longer in combat. The danish Air force will simply not tolerate the risk of danish pilots' lives performing tasks with drugged american pilots.
Please don't kill the messenger
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=8526828&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b
http://dk.news.yahoo.com/020803/108/yfuj.html
The last link is a danish link. Sorry couldn't be bothered to find it in English. Any Scandinavians can confirm its relevance for mistaken bombings over Afghanistan. Of course its easy for the danish air force to play precious. They don't have the same pressure and workrate as the american air force. A tired and exhausted bomber pilot is even more dangerous than a fresh but drugged one. I think the danish air force (any other air force) should come of their high horse. But thats just me.

[ August 09, 2002, 21:23: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

 

Long Beach biochemical attack?

What are you implying, Nobleman? I had nothing to do with it, nothing! -- I was at the mall whole time!

 

Nobleman, thank you for the link. No, I don't trust it. It references a University of New Hampshire study but does not provide a link to the study.

Additionally:

Joacqin said 10,000 children. With no corroboration.
Mr. Writer said 2000 villagers killed by one bomb (all over the news, at that). With no corroboration.
Your link states 3000 - 3500 in the entire campaign. That is quite possible, and quite repugnant.

I am not looking to defend the USA. I want to know the truth so I can do what I can. Which, admittedly, is very little.

It seems I have again allowed myself to be sucked in by anti-American rhetoric. I will have to retire from this topic if it continues this way. I don't have the emotional strength or energy to deal with rhetoric and anecdotes. Which is mostly what I am seeing.

On topic:

I have no plans to fly any time soon, but if I do, I will make sure I don't have any tiny plastic weapons on me. Or breast milk.

 

Not at all Jack. I don't believe Any stories about American massacres either. Unless I can read it on the US government pages Hence the little smiley next to the link I gave you . Don't feel that you have been sucked into anything. I think its actually your duty to encourage people to at least do some research or validity of their knowledge/rumors. I agree that if this turns into some rhetorical mudwrestle I am out of here too. I hope it doesn't, and it won't if people start backing their "Accusations?" with at least some decent links or some solid arguments

[ August 09, 2002, 21:20: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

 

Yeah, Jack Funk -- what you failed to acknowledge is that the only facts which leave a war zone are those which the invading force WANT the public to see.

(This is not intended as an attack on the American PEOPLE in any way...I sympathize with all that's happened. But I wasn't too happy having my bag opened, completely emptied, and ransacked landing in Logan Airport about a month ago. Wow, THIS fifteen-year-old is with the Al-Qaida!!)

 

Tiamat, practically every country has a wolf pack of hungry journalists and reporters looming over any warzone involving US. How should the American air force hide anything? Timestop and darkness radius 1000 miles? Of course everything that happened can be found in news medias. Especially the internet. Just don't trust spooky _subnet urls etc

EDIT; And I am sure the people burning alive in WTC wasn't too happy either; or perhaps more unhappy than you Tiamat. IF ransacing a million annoyed greek teens'(who are in a hurry) bags, will save just one person... I think its fine

[ August 09, 2002, 21:32: Message edited by: Nobleman ]

 

Sorry about the late response -- I finally read the breast milk story.

Again, big whoop. As a formerly-lactating white woman, I don't see why, exactly, that group should be ruled out as possible terrorists. What some of you may not know is that human breast milk does not look much like milk. Human breast milk is quite thin and watery, and sort of blue. It is reasonable to me that someone seeing it for the first time may not believe it to be milk.

Nor it is disgusting. That woman has problems with self-loathing if she is disgusted by her own milk. What kind of person would breast-feed yet feel no curiosity about the taste? Is it just me? How must she feel about... her period? Give me a break!

The inconveniencing of airline passengers is a really minor issue -- people need to spend some time reading the stories of those who died in the terrorist attacks and get over themselves.

 

Tiamat,
If the invading force did not let out the results, then where exactly are Joacqin and Mr. Writer getting their information? Are they on the battlefield? Mr. Writer went as far as to say it was all over the news in the UK. If that is the case, it should be no trouble to produce a link to one of the fine (and reputable) London newspapers.

 

I want to clarify a little bit, while thinking a bit I might have to confess that the 10k death toll might involve the children dying of the aftermath of the bombs, like starvation and freezing to death. But if that is the case then 10k is an all too small number double it and you might crawl a bit nearer the truth. I suck at searching for info on the net and can therefore not link to any info I know that makes what I say perhaps useless in most eyes but I felt the need of saying what I have read in the newspaper and coming from a respectable newsagency.

CNN and other US media are very much in the goverments control, perhaps not in a dictatorship way but they have a close cooperation with it and they would lose viewers if they all of a sudden reported about starving people in an if possible even more devastated nation. Most of the media in the western world is all about money, not about truth or other silly things. That includes my little corner of the world, but here it is anti-us stuff that sells the paper. No one even needs to lie, all they need to do is to be selective.

 

Bag searching is certainly not unique to the United States or a sign that anyone has "gone mad". I lived in England during a very terrorism-intensive period. When Harrods was bombed I lived a short walk away, in fact, loud enough to hear the bang. Not only were bags searched at the airports, then and now, but at every museum, art gallery, and other public events. My school was frequently evacuated as a result of bomb threats and we had armed guards patrolling the school, searching our bags and occasionally calling in the bomb squad to investigate a lunchbox left unattended. Don't know if it's still like that in England- I imagine not- but it's a normal and healthy response to an increase in terrorist activities.

It seems as though the actions of a few airport security guards are considered to be representative of the USA's official approach to countering terrorism, but let's remember that security guards - airport and otherwise, American and otherwise - are human beings, good and evil. And people who elect to pursue careers in security (just like law enforcement or the military) are somewhat more statistically likely to enjoy exerting power over others. Right now, as a result of fears of terrorism, they have a greater carte blanche to indulge themselves in this area than they've ever had before, and some of them are drunk with it.

I've been to the United States twice since September 11, and both times, I was roughly handled by airport security guards. One one of the occasions, the man who grabbed my arm to drag me out of the "non American citizen" queue had his other hand on his gun. Both times I was held for interrogation for more than an hour after my plane departure time, which the guards laughed about amongst themselves in my hearing. Not sure how any of the questions improved airline security: Why was a French woman living in Canada? What does my father do for a living (they wanted to know this both times, but weren't interested in my mother)? Do I colour my hair? How much do I weigh? Do I have a boyfriend? The questions, on one of the occasions, were shouted into my face with a megaphone. They'd already searched my bags, had me sniffed by police dogs, and confiscated my nail file, as well they should have if they found me a suspicious character, but the personal questions, shouting and grabbing seemed unnecessary to me. I can't help wondering if maybe scaring a small blonde woman was just more fun to them than glancing through passports. Similarly- in the cases described above, I would doubt the guards were really worried about national security- they probably thought it was funny, making a woman drink her own breast milk and taking a toy away from a child. When I was telling friends and coworkers in Canada about my experience (which I only considered remarkable when it had happened a second time), they all knew someone else who'd been treated like this or worse recently at the US border.

 

I have seen pictures in the news of kids playing football in their football stadium that was once used for grim things. I can only say it made me feel quite happy to see, a people free of tyranny.

The "accidental" bomb drop sounds weird, must be a communication mix-up somewhere.

As for the starvation after bombing runs, I don't really believe it. Plenty of supplies were dropped after the bombing run. As for the numbers, what is what? 10k children? 10k people? How many civilians, innocent or taliban people?

Back to topic: 2 inch plastic toy guns? That's rediculous. What's it gonna do? Shoot a tooth pick at me with a range up to 5ft?

[ August 10, 2002, 02:20: Message edited by: Lokken ]

 

What is this breastmilk story? I never heard this, so could someone please provide links or something?

Anyway, to anyone that doubts this story, I actually read this in the New York Times, and saw it on CNN, so trust me, this is true.

The 10k death toll? Last I heard, it was roughly 3k people, but regardless, there's no way to prove this either way.

@Methyl, you were very fervent about your anti-death penalty arguments, and now you've become totally unsympathetic to others? How would you feel if one of your relatives couldn't bring you a gift because of some idiotic security guards?

The death penalty for the WTC and Pentagon is estimated at between 2300 and 4700, roughly the same number of people that were killed in Afghanistan. I'm not trying to say that this is right, but the USA has made every effort to minimize civilian deaths? Did they when they attacked us? Just the opposite in fact.

I might be able to understand the fact that it may have been a weapon, except for the fact that it's a solid piece of plastic! I guess we'll just have to resolve to the fact that Americans are morons. See my other posts in this forum if you don't believe this.

 

I would guess that that particular toy gun incident was a result of some new employee following the rules to the letter rather than using common sense. I know that replica guns are banned on aircraft, and some of the more accurate (life-size )replicas could concievably be mistaken for real guns and used to threaten someone in the heat of the moment. I saw a piece on the news about how the police in Edinburgh were asking people to get rid of replica guns before someone gets hurt in an incident where the police aren't able to decide quickly whether a gun's a replica or not. In that piece a police officer held up a real pistol and a replica, and they were pretty much identical.

 

Im a little off topic here but I find that giving toy soldiers with toy rifles to seven year old children is kind of sick.
What kind of message is the child getting from this, role modeling a soldier, playing with toy guns.
This makes me very unhappy, that parents would give there children toys like this.

[ August 10, 2002, 23:02: Message edited by: Aziraphale ]

 

Rastor: I'm a whiner, I'm sympathetic to some whiners -- therefore I must be sympathetic to *all* whiners? No, I do not see that. Some whiners should be slapped.

Was it stupid to take away the toy? Sure. But stupid stuff happens in the pursuit of important goals, and I don't get all the hoo-ha about it.

You really should stop with the "Americans are morons" crap. Maybe *I* am, or maybe you just disagree with me, but a nation of 250 millions could not be composed only of morons. It's statistically unlikely. And it's *tired*.

Sprite: Don't think I include you in the group of whiners that should be slapped! As you say so well, "people who elect to pursue careers in security (just like law enforcement or the military) are somewhat more statistically likely to enjoy exerting power over others." Yes, ask me about the time I was arrested on suspicion of prostitution by a couple of jerk cops. Power corrupts -- and airport cops have never had it so good with the *power.* I don't excuse it -- I don't excuse any of man's inhumanity to man, for any reason.

I just think that people (like you, Rastor!) use incidents like this to show that the United States is rotten, when they don't appreciate the culture of fear we are living in. No one ever thought we, here in the most powerful country in the world, could have anything to fear from war. But behold -- we are vulnerable, and people are scared.

Just like me and the LAPD -- and that wasn't the only time I was harassed by them for being a teenager out on the town in Hollywood with my Black boyfriend. I hated it, and I hated them. Then one night a white-supremacist started a fight as my boyfriend and I came out of a Ramones concert, and stabbed one of our friends in the stomach -- I only had time to go then beeeeoowwwwp -- the LAPD arrives. So the moral of the story?

We may hate what these airport cops become, but we should be glad they are there in the event we need them!

 

Methyl: As you probably know, yes I am an American, and yes, I do speak from personal experience in calling most of us idiots. No, I am not from California, so cannot speak for that end of the country. I only know that in the cities back east here, we are a region of idiots.

I somewhat agree with you here, but I still fail to see how a 2 inch piece of solid plastic could be misinterpreted as a weapon! The airport security guards are certainly being overzealous in their duty.

Yes, but we should not be living in fear. Sure, the terrorists could attack at any moment, but I still cannot see how confiscating a toy soldier from somebody's grandmother is going to help reduce that threat. Not all of us are living in fear Methyl. Will I report suspicious terroristic activities? Sure, but I won't let those terrorists ruin my life. If we remain in constant fear of them, then al-Quaida has already won.

 

What she's trying to say is that overzealousness can be a problem, but sometimes it can help the solution. Yes, these security officers might have been on the aggressive side, but if they didn't let a 2-inch plastic rifle by, they sure as hell wouldn't let anyting bigger through...

 

When i was reading the beginning of this topic i was .
But after some time i recognized it was just another 11. september war.
One can't count death. It's stupid to argue with the number of dead bodies. I really can't stand it.
So this topic was just about funny incidents caused by paranoia of some sort. We don't need to discuss the source of this paranoia, we know it and yes we would be paranoid too.
That all reminded me of future politics and several fears drove my grin away.
But that doesn't matter because changing the world seems to be quite unpossible for me (today, just sitting here, having no visible halo ).
I'd like to hear some funny paranoia stories. I think it's better having some fun while waiting if someone manages to destroy the world. Quite baroque.

 

ahem...

first: i do not felt or feel bad about the dead americans that died... they sponsor USAs reign of terror in the world as a "world police"

Second: the reason that the UN doesn`t interfere is that they are corrupted...

third: and how about when the americans send gene-manipulated corn to somalia just to test if you dies...

fourth: USA have killed more people than the talibans would do if they will drop a nuke over New York (ok not as much but close)

summary: Bush is a moron like all the other presidents... Long live Castro