What makes the best tank, in your opinion?

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@Felinoid: You're right, of course, but I did mention not having F/M/T as a tank in BG1. Seriously thinking, she's not the best possible tank then, mainly for the lack of hitpoints and the lack of protective spells. Her slow levelling is mainly problem in BG1 as well. But in the very beginning even the best tank will be beaten bloody by almost any group of monsters, and avoidance is the best tactic.

But in the beginning of SoA, you will have enough protective spells. Levelling won't be that big issue and in ToB she will be so powerful it hurts.

Equipmentwise in BG1, if you necessarily want to tank her I'd be having boots of speed, sword & shield, and quarterstaff, if you don't mind her backstabbing. Platemail is negotiable, but wizard robes might be a better idea. Staff-spear is found soon enough from Kirinhale in DT. Don't forget wands and any extra handy scrolls. Using wands in the fray every once and a while helps huge amounts and especially wands will ensure that she will make more damage than a regular fighter. Think of it as this way: she's a better fighter than a bard, will make more damage than a fighter because of the wands, and if you're packing plate, she's got what makes a fighter a good tank.

equipment in SoA & ToB:
armor: elven chain -> Robe of Vecna -> Jansen Adventure Wear(tm)
weapons: Depends on your team and preferences, but in the end it's dual wielding with DE in the offhand and AoU in the main, and maybe something like the Answerer for backstab/assasination. Of course in SoA you give her Flail of Ages, Celestial Fury and maybe Dak'kon's Zerth Blade or Kundane in the offhand.

Other: Ring of wizardry and Ring of Acuity, for those spells, Boots of speed, Gauntlets of Weapon expertise and later Wondrous Gloves or Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization and Amulet of Power.

If your team is well balanced, there won't be any need to swap weapons and equipment in the go. I'm thinking about having a mostly missile party to back my F/M/T up made out of good melee fighters as well. Maybe Mazzy, Keldorn, Minsc, Valygar and Jaheira. Sarevok will be a nice addition later.

 

Doesn't it seem a bit of a waste to go F/M/T if thats the setup you're gonna use?

Taking thief as an extra class just to wear Jan's armor, have the occasional backstab and 1 assassination per day.

 

Yes, but having that 25% damage resistance is worth the thief class. And there's also Greater Evasion giving 6 decrease to AC and Avoid death giving +20 to hp, should that become necessary.

edit: there's also this: Does Hardiness stack?

editII: so ok, F/T might be considered to be a good tank as well and UAI makes her a spell caster too, but F/M/T will have the ability to have some spells in chain contingency used via scroll, whereas F/T won't, not to mention about spell triggers and spell sequencers.

[ June 02, 2006, 18:45: Message edited by: Iku-Turso ]

 

The advantage of the bard is with Tensor's Transformation - making him a higher level fighter than your best fighter is.

A F/M or bard tank does not require PfMW (and I have had both types of characters tank without it).

Spells cast (in order of casting):
Stoneskin (lvl. 4)
Spirit Armor (lvl. 4) (lasts 10 turns)
Blur (lvl. 2) (lasts 4 rounds + 2 rounds/level)
*Mirror Image (lvl. 2) (lasts 3 rounds + 1round/level)
*Fireshield: Blue (lvl. 4) (lasts 3 rounds + 1 round/lvl)
Improved Haste (lvl. 6) (lasts 3 rounds + 1 round/lvl)
Tenser's Transformation (lvl. 6) (lasts 1 round/lvl)

So as a bard "wastes" 5 rounds casting spells... at level 23 (SoA cap), you've got nothing that lasts for less than 23 rounds. You'll be a level 23 fighter THAC0 with a +2 to hit and to damage bonus with double at least 200 hp, a AC (assuming a 18 Dex) of -9 before items, have at least 2 attacks per round (more likely 4 if you are dualweilding with a blade), will not take much damage for the first 12 hits he takes (most enemies do not do elemental damage). And that requires 5 spells. Which is all he needs to memorize.

 

The weakness and strength in the bard argument is their reliance on tenser's transformation. When your stoneskins have been knocked off (which yes would take longer as you have more than a f/m, f/m/t) you won't be able to recast them.

Plus you *have to* dual wield (normally to belm/kudane/scarlet) to have a similar number of attacks or cause anywhere near the damage of any F/M build.

 

And the disadvantage of a blade is not having damage resistance. If you want high AC, then the blade is definitely the tank you want to have. But when AC isn't what counts, then it's damage resistance.

And a fighter multi-class will still dish out more damage because of GWW.

 

With my fighter/mages, I usually put my preferred defensive combo into a spell trigger. I only "waste" one round casting a spell (and not even that, since you can pretty much start attacking right after you cast).

 

Bards get TT at level 16 while a mage gets level 6 spells at level 11... meaning, while I can't look up the EXP tables, will get get level 6 spells before a F/M will (with PfMW).

The 4 ways to get significant resistances to damage are: Jan's AdventureWear, DoE, Armor of Faith and being a Barbarian. The only way to combine all three would be to make a F/T/C which you can't do.

Thus a F/M/T, SKed to a Barbarian.

Otherwise, a barbarian with DoE is going to have the highest resistances (or a Barbarian/Theif DC with UAI). I agree that this will be the best non-magic tank (I see the two as different categories).

My suggestion about a blade is that it is comparable to a F/M as it can achieve it's relative power fairly easily (level 16 - no HLAs required).

A F/M will not have any resistance advantages over a bard (other than being a barbarian).

As for damage, if we assume relatively equal strengths (19 is possible for both), the damage is lower for a blade because of specialization, and number of attacks. A blade will get a +2 with in Offensive Spin. As for attacks: a dual-weilding blade with Offensive Spin and then Improve Haste with Belm or Scarlet, will have 1 + 1 + 2 * 2 for a total of 8 attacks a round for 24 seconds (about the same amount of time as a GWW). So you don't deal as much damage. And what's wrong with dual-weilding for a tank? I already showed that your AC can be quite good.

The advantage is from the higher casting level allowing your spells to last longer over a F/M. Because of the lower spell level, TT won't last as long and you won't get as many fighter levels (cause the mage level is lower) - though the bonus HP is higher (due to the fighter HD).

Edit: Any spell combo a F/M has (other than Chain Contigency I believe) a Blade can do as well.

Edit: Oops. Forgot Hardiness being the 5th (and major way). This is a good point for a F/M though requires a lot more experience than a blade.

[ June 02, 2006, 21:10: Message edited by: UCLAEnigma ]

 

@UCLAEngima
A F/M wouldn't use TT at all.

Offensive spin doesn't work in conjucntion with either haste, so the max number of attacks would be 6.

 

Hmm, best tank vs. best soloer. I somehow don't think that's the topic.

The HP is a problem, but the slow levelling is not a problem in BG1 (it's actually a bigger problem in BG2 than it is in BG1, due to the experience tables). The problem, linked with the HP, is just the overall low level of the game. F/M/Ts don't come into their own for a while. The spell selection is also somewhat poorer (no Stoneskin et al.); BG1 just isn't made for the multi-classes. And if your tanks are getting beat up even at first level, you have to reexamine your idea of "tank" in BG1.

Level 12! FFS, does noone listen? It's the one place in the mage's progression where he doesn't get a new spell level in two levels; it's not that hard to remember.

Anyway, mage level 12 is 0.75M, and bard level 16 is 1.32M. So a multi-classed mage wouldn't get it as soon.

 

@Pseudo
Oops. My bad (I'm not an expert - I just like having weird debates).

My point on spell-casting was supposed to be more an argument that your protections could last longer than 4 rounds of PfMW (from starwalker's point).

Additionally, having 12 skins with a low AC (such as -14 I had with Haerdalis), most enemies will not hit you anyway. They have a 5% chance at most to hit you. The best THAC0 in an unmodded game is -6 by the Slayer with 4 attacks - meaning he hits on averaged 0.2 times per round; this means it would take about 600 turns to take out all the stoneskins. Yeah, the AC spells would run out well before that - but you could easily recast them if you haven't killed the enemy yet. Basically, my point is that by the time the SS run out, TT would have been long gone.

@Fel
My bad - I read DSimpson's FAQ wrong.

 

Wrong. The best THAC0s in the unmodded game belong to the dragons, Melissan, and Demogorgon. At better than -20 for each of them (including STR bonuses, proficiency, and weapon bonuses), they'll hit anything you have, no matter what. Making damage reduction or protective spells a must for anyone to be truly called "tank" and not "fodder".

It's also wrong in that a THAC0 of -6 vs. an AC of -14, would result in a To Hit of 8, meaning he'd hit you about two out of three times. That's 2.6 hits a round, and the Stoneskin goes down in five rounds. (Also, the Slayer's -6 THAC0 does not factor in STR bonuses, proficiency, or weapon bonuses, so it'd be even worse.)

 

Which is why a weapon like Soul Reaver +4 is pure gold. If enough hits connect with a GWW you can make Demogorgon no more threatening than a kitten.

I still think the best defence is a good offence (thats my mindless-cliche-of-the-day ) i prefer to weaken the enemy to such a point that i don't need a tank.

Reaver/FOA/Level Draining/Vorpal/Answerer

[ June 02, 2006, 21:48: Message edited by: Pseudospawn ]

 

Finally! An Arguement on the behalf of magic usage which does not involve PfMW's. I've been tired of argueing that spells weaknesses.

You've actually got a very good set up here. REally the only thing that I can point out in counter argument are subjective. The First one being style. The second one being the durability to tank any time and for sudden encounters. Which I will admit are rare as well as we know the games. But you give a good argument to which I can say this makes the f/m a viable tank and one of the best. I won't say the best but I also won't say the Barbarian is the best when confronted with this argument. Both styles are such that they come down to personal style as to which one is better. making the final decision personal.

As for this. I apparantly need to watch when I do math. Actually did my multiplication twice on accident. By the math I did do though It would have come out to 3,375,000xp to be exact. For that number the only single class that would not be at least level 19 would the Druid. And the Druid has that unfortunate 1.5mil hurdle at level 14. The Druid though pretty much out of the tank running does have the advantage that it does manage to nearly catch up in level with any other character.

For all of the Tanking Classes as I was classifying before we finally got a decent argument to the F/M that would have meant that our Tank Candidates would all be at least 5 levels higher than the F/M/T. Of what we have slowly widdled down to what a tank means. Which would give us clearly The Barbarian having 7 levels above the F/M/T. Those levels do matter quite a bit in the viability of a tank just at that level.

For this ammount of Experience The Priest would be level 23 and would be a more viable tank than a level 12/12/14 F/M/T And no it's not just a level 14 character. It's a level 12/12/14. When your considering some of it's best advantages comes from the fighter class you'd consider it a level 12. The Priest of level 23 has a lower Thac0 than a level 12 Fighter. A high strength bonus would only increase this. Might as well just cast a Draw Upon Holy might at that level. Get an AC increase. Regeneration from High Con. And you only have to cast one spell.

So not only is it being outdone by a support character. But it's also a class that in a group cannot realize real potential compared to the other characters in your party until the end of the game if it does at all. A level 35 bard or Barbarian is going to be a lot more affective and useful than a level 18/17/22 or whatever it comes out to be for 2.66 mil or there abouts that the F/M/T maxes out at with an 8mil total xp cap in the game.

It is an outright Fantastic Solo Character. It sucks as a Tank. The Very things that make it Versatile bite it in the ass in a group.


And one Final Note. I think that Anything that we are even going to try to classify as the Best of Anything should at least in part stand up to us and not just the Dismal AI in the game. A good programer could probably actually make the enemies quite a bit smarter. A Mediocre programmer that desired to could probably make AI to defeat singular things like PfMW. Though that would probably ruin some of the joy of the game.

But we know that most anything could do any role if we only consider the enemy AI. The proof is all over these forums. That doesn't necessarily make them the best or even one of the best at it.

theTruth seems to make a point of proving just what could be done with singular character's. Having a harder time by his own admission with Some Tanks solo'ing than he did with some of the support classes. Yet we take those same Characters and put them in a group and they come out almost un-matched in capability.

 

PFMW's short duration is not a weakness. Four rounds is a very long time when you attack 7 times a round in conjunction with a feat like smite or critical strike. In four rounds, a high level fighter/mage will be able to knock out all the credible melee opponents in most cases. In those few instances when he can't, his stoneskin will likely carry him through the rest of the way or he can just re-cast PFMW. He will probably have another PFMW in a contingency as well in case all his defenses get dropped and he starts taking damage. I base my strategy on PFMW, Improved Haste, Stoneskin, and Fireshield because it works. My Fighter/mage takes no damage from enemies, but they get hurt every time they try to attack him. My fighter/mage will also dish out a lot more damage than a straight fighter could possibly dish out without help.

Lower hit points doesn't make you a weaker tank when no one can hurt you in the first place. I readilly concede that a fighter/mage makes a better tank than a F/M/T. A bard cannot deal anywhere near as much damage, however, since he will have a lower Thac0 and less attacks for the entire game. The bard also doesn't have many more hitpoints since the F/M/T gets a bonus for a constitution over 16. If your F/M/T has a 19 con, that's an extra 28 (because of the 10th thief level) hit points that the bard can't get. By the end of ToB, a bard might have 10 more hit points than a F/M/T. I'm not even going to try to compare a Barbarian to a F/M/T. The barbarian, while effective, simply cannot take the ammount of punishment a F/M/T can take.

[ June 03, 2006, 08:50: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

Oh it can only half all of the physical damage that it takes with minimal equipment even if it's standing there naked and yet it can't compare to the F/M/T. I'm sorry but no.

7 attacks a round is not that impressive when you cannot hit for half of them. By the time you equip a Barbarian with a number of purely optional items because of the open slots the setup has as a tank. It's going at least as many attacks as a F/M/T. Deal more damage and have a serious armor rating. On top of that. With So many Opened slots and the ability if your going to push the numbers from a Power Gaming Aspect it's going to have a strength high enough to compare to any strength belt in the game. You can actually give it more than 50% magic resistance as well as a fair ammount of elemental resistances and still have a formidable AC. So that means not only is it halving physical damage but it's reducing the ammount of magical damage that the barbarian takes.

The Bard has a high casting level and can do anything that your bragging about with your spells. If it is so damned perfect for your F/M/T then the bard can pull it off no problem.

There is also the Fact that unless the game engine screwed up. The F/M/T should only get an advantage for greater than 16 Con For it's fighter Levels. The Mage and Thief Levels should still be stuck with only the additional +2HP.

Then we've got to consider if you want to be able to use your thief skills on your already weakened character and actually be able to use the best armor they might be able to. Problem is that it's chainmail which means to keep your Mage Spells and your Thief skills as well as build up a healthy AC to defend against those surprise attacks that you are required to have UAI. Taking UAI for the benefit of a single item is very extreme if you ask me.

I've honestly survived the length of PfMW for it to wear off and I could quickly strip down things like stone skin. Your talking to a player that sometimes does it out of boredom. in a Group the F/M/T is going to have to go a long time before it can cast the spell twice if that recasting is needed. Yes there are things that can screw up spell casting through stone skin. It seems we had another thread a month or two ago where we found out a fair number of extra affects to weapons can actually go through stone skin. Your stone skin is also weakened by your lower level. Your not getting the same ammount of protection out of it. You have less skins protecting you and you will never get up to the full 10 skins. So even at it's highest level 1 attack from a whirlwind will get through and damage your F/M/T.

 

Critical strike = natural 20. An improved hasted f/m or f/m/t will always hit if using Critical Strike or Smite. The F/M/T gets his HLA's the same time as a barbarian does. The barbarian will likely be (rightfully) spending his slots on GWW, but a F/M or F/M/T will more likely be using them for critical strike, Smite, and Assasinate. I'd take 10 garaunteed hit backstabs (critical strike/Smite + dual wielding + improved haste + gauntlets of extraordinary specialization + belm/kundane/scarlet ninjato + mislead) possibly doing double damage over 10 potential hits any day. Even without the mislead cheese 10 garaunteed hits > 10 attacks in a round.

Stoneskin = 100% damage reduction. The barbarian cannot get this. I'm not particularly bothered by the fact that the F/M/T is missing a skin or two. PFMW = total invulnerability to physical attack. Not only will the F/M or F/M/T have multiple castings of it, but he will also likely have it in a contingency. I keep it in two different contingencies (regular and chain) with a F/M and have it kick in at different levels of injury. Later on, when I have enough scrolls, I do it for the F/M/T as well or I just use a limited wish. I don't think I've ever actually had to use my chain contingencies because my F/M's and F/M/T's never get hurt.

The bard does not hit as well or attack as often as a F/M/T and he does not get the Critical Strike or Smite HLA's. He cannot do the damage a F/M or F/M/T can do. Remember....PFMW does not care about caster level. With immunity to abjuration, it cannot be dispelled, either.

Not according to my 2e players handbook.....

Incedentally, by the time your enemies have HLA's like whirlwind the F/M/T will already have more than one casting of PFMW, some scrolls of the same, and probably a ring of wizardry, too. He'll be doing just fine. Scrolls and contingencies, incedentally, cannot be disrupted so there is no need for a F/M/T or F/M to be caught with his pants down. By the way, I've always found the Aslyferund chain to be more than good enough for providing a nice AC (even though AC doesn't really matter in ToB. ToB enemies will hit you regardless of how good it is).

[ June 03, 2006, 11:07: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

Critical strike has a weakness. The number of enemies in the game wearing helmets.

And I'm sorry. only about half my warriors invest heavily in GWW. I am far more prone to having a mage haste my tank. I like to use Critical Strike and Smite.

There is also the fact that as I recall you can only get 1 smite.


As for the hitpoints. I actually dug out my players guide. There would be no extra hitpoints gained for a F/M/T. in the PnP game You would get a single bonus. The +5. Then it would be split in three and you'd get a fraction of that bonus on the leveling up of each class. This means that you would get no more hitpoints than you would for just playing a pure fighter character. Or if you were a real stickler for math you would get 2.5 extra hitpoints in total more in bonuses than you would for a normal fighter. Considering your hitpoints are always a third of what you roll. It really doesn't make an advantageous boost in hitpoints.

but it does mean that we were both wrong and still leaves the possibility that the game engine isn't doing things right.

And by the way. in ToB. It is possible to get an AC of a decent enough level to offer real and advantageous protection against a fair ammount of the enemies in the game and mitigate a bit of the damage from the big guys by giving at least a small chance they will miss.

In my last game I managed to have 2 AC's at -13. I could have probably had another something simular but I was using Sarevok and had him swinging around 2-handed weapons. My monk was at a -12AC. most all of it from her natural armor. What this means is that I had 3 characters that could riably feel that about 20-25% of the hits would actually miss them from something with a -20Thaco. There are only a few things with that kind of Thac0.

And let's not forget the fact that your F/M/T will likely never get chain contingency unless your going to use the very limited scrolls. So listing Chain contingency as a valid defense for them doesn't work.

 

@starwalker
ah, be we're not talking about a fair amount of enemies in the game. Against the large amount of monsters & evil people you don't need to burn your HLA's and protective spells, or even think about tactics for that matter. storm in, pummel away in melee and down a few cheap heal potions afterwards.

...and has already been stressed many times in this thread, critical strike isn't about causing critical damage. Its ensuring hits against the toughest enemies with annoyingly high ac/hp/resists/thac0, that will tear you apart before you sucessfully land a hit.

 

Exactly. I don't take critical strike for critical damage. I take it so that attacks never miss.

Which is exactly what I was saying. Since I was comparing the F/M/T to a bard in the example above the difference is quite large. The bonus HP of a F/M/T will come out at 46-47 HP with a 19 constitution. Remember that 5 gets added at each level up before it gets divided by three. I'm fairly certain that 5*3/3=5. In other words, the F/M/T will get 15 from his fighter levels, fifteen from his cleric levels, and 16 or 17 from his thief levelsa. The bard gets a maximum bonus of 20......even if his constitution is 25.

The F/M/T lags in HP behind a warrior or even behind a warrior/mage. No one is contesting this. The point I'm making is that he will have more spells than a bard by the end of the game, will always have a better attack and Thac0 than a bard, and will likely have more hitpoints than a bard until the bard reaches about level 30 assuming a high constitution. At the end of the game, the HP difference will be about 10, but the F/M/T will have level 8 spells, more attacks, Fighter HLA's, and a better Thac0 when compared to a bard. A straight F/M is still a better tank than a F/M/T in my opinion......but a F/M/T will tank better than bard or a single classed warrior.

Chain contingency is a very viable defense for a F/M/T. Between superflous scrolls that your wizards don't use and the limited wish chain contingency, the F/M/T will be able to cast it at least 3 times. Unless you really suck, 3 chain contingencies is all you will ever need (I only used one and it didn't get activated until the ascension battle in my last game) to use if you are setting it to activate at 25% hitpoints like I do.

[ June 03, 2006, 23:50: Message edited by: Drew ]