Who has more power: Irenicus or Elminster?

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You probably got the 2000 year idea (like I did) from BG1 when Edwin quotes: "Elminster this, Elminster that! Give me 2000 years and a pointy hat and I'll kick his arse!"

 

Sorry about the wrong name for death god. I knew the god working with Bane was a god of death of some type and I remembered it starting with 'K'. Kelemvor came to mind but obviously I'm confused. I'm sitting exams at the moment so aragh!

Still end result is Elminster would wipe the floor with anyone bar a god and possibly The Simbul whom he would beat but only just.

 

Well elminster might be able to beat some of the minor dieties without profiles. I wont give any examples but im sure we can come up with one. Not sure though.

Why would elminster be prominent in BG. Also I though of one thing that could beat elminster, vecna, even when he was mortal could have wiped the floor off elminster.

[ November 18, 2003, 00:38: Message edited by: Strifestrike ]

 

I'm a mite curious... Why doe's someone as obviously powerful and influencial as Elminster not play a more prominant role in the BG series? He appears the odd times I know, but I for one would love to see and hear more from him.

Even if its only more stories of his exploits in the many books you find .

 

Because Elminster has better things to do than pay attention to one sniviling upstart bastard child of some long dead god. Elminster's been trying to keep the world working as it should for 1200 or so years, the last thing he wants to do is get too involved with the player character. If he pisses off the PC and the PC does achieve godhood then thats one more god that doesn't like El. If he helps the PC then the PC is going to rely on this nice old mighty powerful mage to save his arse every now and again.

Elminster has a policy of not sticking his nose into things that aren't his business. He admits he has no right to force his beliefs on others, since that is an evil thing. Let the damn kid have his godhood, as long as he dun' touch my Shadowdale I'll be happy.

 

Err, not sticking his long nose into things? Of course not...

 

In the film titled "Stand by me" there is a question: who is stronger Mickey Mouse or Superman...

This topic makes me remember this film.

The answer in the film is: Mickey Mouse is a cartoon, but Superman a real person A cartoon can't beat a real person.

 

Hypothetical, Valer. Hypothetical!!
It's for the sake of argument
And besides Mickey would wipe the floor with Superman. Mickey is a cartoon, thus can not be killed and has a knack of being able to pull anything out of his pockets at exactly the right time. Now what could he pull out of his pocket that Superman wouldn't like?

 

quote:

If only the Harper's were like that


Elminster is old, powerful, wise, intellgent etc, anyone would be if they were old as him, so my question is: Why doesn't he cast wish and wish for all the evil to just die?

Is it because all of Faerun would be a very boring place if he did

 

For anyone who has the FRCS, Elminster does have an amusing little rant in it on why he simply doesn't kick every evil guy's ass and turn Faerun into an utopia.

Personality-wise though, it has to be Irenicus.

Coolest.Villian.Ever.
(well, in a CRPG anyway)

Besides, Elminster's just a Gandalf-ripoff on ultra steroids. Remove that Chosen Template and I can kick his ass with a wizard of the same level.

Hence Elminster=lame. Irenicus=

 

No one saw that one coming Shura

 

Why doesn't get involved with your buisness??

Why don't you get involved with a grasshoppers buisness?

 

As far as my D&D knoledge and history of the forgotten realms go I'd only be a casual as compared to a lot of people on this site.

But what I dont understand is how Elminster can have the ability to kill all the evil doer's of the world with a click of his fingers, and not do it, then still claim to be good while there is still slavery and "evil" out there that he could easily stop. It makes absolutely no sense to me, that he's one of the good guy's but he doesent want to stop all of the above from happening because he feels that he's too good or too powerful, or that the task is too beneath his ability.

 

No no no. Elminster has his reasons. He might be 'good' but he's also a harper. Balance is what must be maintained as well. To kill every evil-doer on Toril would require a hell of a lot of work and a damn bank of 'detect-evil' spells to avoid slaughtering the innocents. He'd also have to committ acts of genocide (e.g. wiping out the orc, goblin, drow, ogre races).

 

Well no one would really miss these race's, and correct me if I'm wrong but I heard somewhere that not all Drow society's are evil. For example in the underdark if you spare Solaufiens life he mentions Elistrae Silver hair a good Drow god.

And I also have to wonder how maintaining the balance be more important, then stopping innocent people from being killed by Drow, Ogres, Gnolls etc.

However I do see why Elminster would not want to make a first strike against all these evils (like America attacking Iraq, Iraq may be led by an "evil person" but they were not guilty of anything against any of our country's really)

Like in BG1 for example at the Gnoll stronghold where you can just go and attack gnolls who evil or not, are completly innocent of any crime.

Thankyou for enlightening me.

 

It is common knowledge in Faerun that Elminster is the most powerful being, especially being a Chosen of Mystra.

He has help raise the seven sisters, taken on Thay and Zhentarim, and defeated hundreds of rival wizards almost single handedly. He is pretty much Gandalf for Forgotten Realms (as someone has already stated).

During the time of troubles Elminster held the power of Mystra within himself. Now that is pretty powerful by anyones standards.

He is a very shrewd tactician and used the ablilities of others (with his help/advice) to defeat the enemy and very rarely acts directly against anyone himself.

In a straight fight between Elminster and Irenicus, I think you'll find Jon getting his butt kicked severely.

The problem with bad guys is that no matter how powerful they are, they always believe in their own self importance and instead of killing the good guys when they get the chance, they always seem to give them a chance and get killed in the end.

Elminster isn't the most powerful magic user in Faerun. 'The Simbul' (one of the even sisters) is.

 

Hmmm. Just to perhaps provide a bit of background info:

There comes a itme when every student and many a passing merchant, farmer, and king, too, demands the same answer of me: Why, O meddler and mighty mage, do ye not set the crooked straight? Why not strike directly against the evils that threaten Faerun? Why do not all mighty folk of good heart not simply make everything right?

I've heard that cry so many times. Now hearken, once and for all, to my answers as to why the great and poweruldon't fix Toril entire every day.

First, it is not at all certain that those of us with the power or inclination can even accomplish a tenth of the deed asked of us. The forces arrayed against us are dark and strong indeed. I might surprise Manshoon or old Szass Tam and burn him from the face of Toril-or he might do the same to me. It's a rash and short-lived hero who presses for battle when victory is not assured.

Second, the wise amongst us know that even gods can't foresee all the consequences of their actions-and all of us have seen far too many instances of good things turning out to ause something very bad, or unwanted. We've learned that meddling often does far more harm than good.

Third: Few folk can agree on what is right, what should be done, and what the best end result would be. When ye consider a mighty stroke, be assured that every move is apt to be countered by someone who doesn't like the intended result, is determined to stop it, and is quite prepared to lay waste to you, your kingdom, and anything else necessary to counfound you.

Point the fourth: Big changes can seldom be effected by snakk actions. How much work does it take just to build one house? Rearrange one room? How many simple little actions, then, will it take to destroy one kingdom and raise another-with name, ruler, and societal order of your choice-in its place?

Finally: D'ye think we "mighty ones" are blind? Do we not watch each other, and guess at what each is doing, and reach out and do some little thing that hampers the aims of another great, and mighty? We'll never be free of this problem, and that's a good thing. I would cower at the thought of living in any Faerun where all the mighty and powerful folk agreed perfectly on everything. That's the way of slavery and shackles and armed tyranny...and if ue'd like to win a bet, wager that ye'll be near the bottm of any such order.

Right. Any more silly questions?

-Elminster of Shadowdale, FRCS pg 84

Elminster might kick butt, but there are other truly extremely powerful beings of evil in Faerun. Individually, Manshoon or Szass Tam might not be a match for Elminster, but the war to remove them would certainly result in great suffering and carnage. And then there are the Shade Princes, Epic spellcasters every one of them, falling behind Elminster by at most 3 or four levels with their mighty Shade template. A battle between them and all the Chosen of Mystra, as detailed in the Archmages Trilogy, would be catastrophic and phyrric at best. Elminster was not there at the conflict, but the most senior Shade Prince was absent as well.

Fzoul would give Elminster a pretty good fight too. The Zhentarim as an organization kick the Harpers butt anyday and the Chosen of Bane is not to be trifled with even by Epic characters. To battle any of these powers would severely weaken Elminster, allowing other evil forces to move in and win, resulting in disaster for the Realms.

But my PC, Lancress Stryfe the Bhaalspawn will gladly take it upon himself to wipe out the Black Network, the Night Masks, the Red Wizards, the Church of Cyric, the Harpers, and Mystra's Chosen and claim all of Faerun for himself.

What are gods against the power of *reload*?

 

Principally, Elminster is very powerful. More powerful than Edwin, who presumably passed through the BGsaga. He killed him. Edwin couldn't have no difficluties against Jonolaeth. So, I think, with that connection Elminster will wash and spit the floor with Irenicus...

And what about Mordenkainen? Isn't he an ass-kicker, also?

Khelben vs. Elminster

 

El. would kick Khel.'s ass all over the place. There is no contest there however Elminster and Khelben would have no reason to fight.

 

Fzoul? Isn't he the one Elminster's been whopping around who knows how many times. I don't remember if it's Fzoul or whatever who had most of his power in having hidden clones around Faerún where his spirit would be transferred every time he died, effectively making him immortal. But if that was the case, then in the last encounter Elminster had with him (Crown of Fire), Elminster kicked his arse clearly and reminded him before he escaped that if he got any more powerful, Elminster would personally reserve the time to hunt down and kill every last one of his clones making and end to it once and for all.

The thing is, as someone already hinted at here, Elminster has his power because of his nature and personality. Elminster doesn't seek power, not at all. He only seeks servitude to Mystra.

Were he good he would use his power to strike down all evil. Were he evil, he would use his power to rise above all else and rule over others. And if either of those two were the case, he would not receive the power, would indeed be killed for it, because at some point he would inevitably disturb the balance so much as to even anger the gods themselves. Because he does the bidding of his goddess and nothing more, he is relied upon enough to carry such a power. Ironically, although it isn't brought up much, Elminster probably has less freedom than almost any character with great power. Still, it's his choice and preference to live in such a way. As he said himself (Elminster in Hell), if he would betray Mystra now, then all of what he'd lived for ever since she became his goddess, would be a lie.